Hinduism and Reincarnation

quote:

---

Surely some scientists of repute did check it out. 24 hours or longer in the case of some statues. Why the relative dearth of information. I googled "milk miracle" "scientific investigation (and other such words)" and got a page and a bit.

​

Did science presume hoax/illusion and not bother?

---

Try googling milk miracle skepticHeres one:http://www.findarticles.com/...i_m2843/is_n2_v20/ai_18158436Heres another from Skeptic magazine 1995 v.3 issue 4 p.18 "Milk Miracle Makes Masses Mental" More background information may be found in several articles in the the London Times between Sept. 23 and 26, 1995. Of particular interest:Secret is in the Stone, say doubting scientists - Sept. 23, 1995 p.3In the lap of the gods - Sept. 24, 1995 p.14From the latter: Just doing my job {Added by Edit}The admins dont like just quotes and they want people to be on topic so I must add my thoughts.The "milk miracle" is purported to be one of the proofs of indicators of reincarnation and Hinduism according to the OP. My research indicates skepticism regarding these claims is definately called for as "extraodinary claims require extraordinary evidence" - Carl Sagan. As far as I can tell from my research, the "milk miracle" has been debunked.Upon closely watching the video, I can even see evidence of the milk fusing with the evidently wet statues under the spoons. I could also see in some instances actual milk running down the statues and congealing at the bottom. The desire to believe should not outweigh ones own immediate common sense perceptions.Additionally, instances of abusing the faith of the masses for personal gain, as I believe is shown by this incident and which occurs among all religions, should be exposed and vilified by all people regardless of belief. To support such hucksters, because they are part of "my" religion, is an insult to God and humanity.In this case millions of gallons of milk, which could have been used to feed the poor, were wasted as the believers poured them into the statues. I wonder how many died to further the mecinations of this Chandraswami's thirst for power and self-preservation.Slightly OT - I hope this post also shows the need to go beyond the internet when performing research in many cases, please feel free to visit your nearest library. - (opinion of an obviously biased librarian)And please be skeptical, the life you save may be your own (or even someone else's).ABE - The opinions in the above rant are meant for a general audience and are not necessarily targeted at any individual in this thread.Edited by anglagard, : Add Skeptic quoteEdited by anglagard, : misplaced quotation markEdited by anglagard, : additional infoEdited by anglagard, : My thoughtsEdited by anglagard, : clarification concerning audienceEdited by anglagard, : remove a few words that could have been misinterpreted

quote:

---

I see that people came up with rational possible explanations for the disappearance of the milk, and maybe they are right, but in that case it's hard to see the thing as a politically inspired hoax, as it was just people believing the phenomena who fed the milk to the statues, who had no political axes to grind.

---

I consider it a form of politically-inspired mass hysteria combined with an overarching need to believe. This is not the only case in history where this has occured. I do not have such great faith in politicians that I would believe any are above such manipulation of religious belief for political purposes. The evidence for Chandraswami's involvement in this hoax is pretty strong according to what I read IMHO.

quote:

---

In any case although the explanations have plausibility I don't see any scientific rigor in the investigation. Exactly how much milk could be expected to be absorbed by a statue, or to stick to it either? How much was "fed" them? How much pooled at the bottom?

---

It is a little tricky to perform a rigorous scientific investigation over a purported miracle that happened only one day. However, one could easily test if any of the statues would still absorb liquid today according to the possible models, provided one were allowed to perform such an experiment. In other cases there was outright fraud, as shown in the articles.

quote:

---

The problem is that skeptics are no less eager to believe that there is some rational explanation than religious people are to believe in their particular religious explanation, and detailed investigation with genuine lack of bias just doesn't happen on either side of the story.

---

The skeptics didn't waste millions of gallons of milk in a nation with a high level of poverty, the blind-faith believers manipulated by a morally dubious swami and his followers did. Edited by anglagard, : speling

quote:

---

Perhaps I read too fast and missed some of the details. Was an existing hysteria about the statues exploited by the politicians, or was it supposedly created by the politicians in the first place?

---

Actually both are apparently true. Please read the article in the first link and the last box on post 16. Also, some of the London Times articles go into more detail about the political background but they are not on the internet so far as I know.

quote:

---

Even the truest believer isn't going to be deceived when buckets of milk start pooling around the statues.

---

Evidently not, once again please see the article linked in post 16.

quote:

---

And if they were merely exploiting an existing situation, we're back to asking questions about the physics involved in the phenomenon itself. So again, just how MUCH milk could be accounted for by absorption and displacement into the wetness on the surface anyway? Don't you need to know that? I mean this involved a LOT of people feeding milk to these statues.

---

Some of the statues were filled with vermiculite or pearlite and some had tubing installed according to the articles I read. The event was preplanned therefore all means of trikery were available to the perpetrators.

quote:

---

And if they were merely exploiting an existing situation, we're back to asking questions about the physics involved in the phenomenon itself. So again, just how MUCH milk could be accounted for by absorption and displacement into the wetness on the surface anyway? Don't you need to know that? I mean this involved a LOT of people feeding milk to these statues.

---

I think the sordid details of this so-called miracle speak for itself. I'm sure most scientists have other things to do than investigate claims where motive, means, and evidence of fraud are so readily apparent. If you or the other believers choose to consider them miracles, that is yours or their perogative. I still feel this incident wasted (or in some cases redistributed) millions of gallons of milk that could have gone to feed the hungry. I personally find this morally reprehensible, as did many of the commentators in India.
Edited by anglagard, : missed a / on quote

No need to apologise to me, I'm just glad you agree with the conclusions I arrived at from my research. Hope I can return the favor soon, even many times over, despite our obvious differences on some other issues. I deeply respect your intelligence and courage, even if it may not seem that way at times, but that is what happens when two people are passionate about strongly-held yet contradictory beliefs.