Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
1 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,806 Year: 3,063/9,624 Month: 908/1,588 Week: 91/223 Day: 2/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Why Atheists don't believe
Larni
Member (Idle past 163 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 271 of 310 (314271)
05-22-2006 8:25 AM
Reply to: Message 260 by riVeRraT
05-19-2006 5:36 PM


Re: IMPORTANT DIFFERENCE
You have the feeling of love towards your mother. You may have the feeling of a gods existance but this does not make it so.
If there is a lot of correcting for me to do, please point them out and I will happili correct them for you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by riVeRraT, posted 05-19-2006 5:36 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 273 by riVeRraT, posted 05-22-2006 8:55 AM Larni has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 272 of 310 (314280)
05-22-2006 8:52 AM
Reply to: Message 270 by CK
05-22-2006 7:32 AM


Re: Just not true.
they would be unable to function in the real world.
The real world is just that....real.
Let's take a simple example - when my significant other says she is going off to work - how do I know she is? she could be off meeting another boyfriend?
Based on the evidence, this is a perfectly viable thing to believe in. You have collected enough evidence in your life about the "real world", and your loved one to have no reason to doubt her. Your belief that she is going to do what she says she is doing is based on evidence, both objective, and subjective, not 100% faith.
If things were not adding up, her coming home late, weird phone calls, then based on that evidence, you might doubt her. Either way, it's all based on evidence, and the real world, and not some fantasy myth.
If someone tells me they went on holiday to Spain - what evidence do I have besides their word? Why am I likely to doubt them?
Based on the evidence of the conversation, you can choose to doubt them or not. If put on the stand about the conversation, your logical answer would be that I was told by so and so, that he went on a vacation to Spain. I have no reason to doubt him, but I have no evidence that he did go there. That is a perfectly viable assumption about the trip, and it's all based on the evidence.
You believe with 100% certainty that the conversation happened, but you do not believe with 100% certainty that he actually went. This only matters when it affects you, and you are asked what your honest assessment of the situation is. You would never say I believe with 100% faith that he went, would you?
If I eat out and they tell me the chicken is an organic chicken - what evidence do I have besides them telling me that? Am I going to leap up and ask to inspect the kitchens, take blood/cell samples? No of course I am not!
Given todays world (or any other day) why would you believe with 100% certainty that the chicken was organic. Even I do not look at the chicken and say it's organic with 100% certainty. I say I hope it is what they say it is.
It's like the fortune in a fortune cookie that says, that wasn't chiken.
An even more simple example - if I ask someone for directions and they give them to me, a normal person does not suddenly demand proof or evidence that the directions are correct.
Then you've never been to Puerto Rico. I have never received proper direction from anyone there. It seems to be a joke to send people in the completely wrong direction. Either that or there is too much pride to actually admit something they don't know.
Either way, your saying that you believe the directions that were given to you are 100% correct? Will you drive away from that person knowing 100% that you will arrive at the proper destination? OR will you be driving with an uncertainty, and hoping that person wasn't a flake and sent you 20 mins. out of your way?
Or are you going to just try them out to see where it takes you, because at the moment you have no other choice. If you arrive in the proper place, then you can say, hey that person was right.
You present all these cases that lead me to believe you are the kind of person that takes many things on faith. But not God, because it is just so ridiculus, and far fetched. But I am sure that if I questioned you, or if you were put on the stand, then the truth of your experience will come out. The truth is what matters or not. The truth of what you actually believe in will come out, especially in a debate here.
The point is, there is no reason to question any of this stuff, because it just doesn't matter. That doesn't mean you believe it with 100% certainty.
This is the exact reason I continue to question my faith, the church, and the people that go there. There are aspects of my faith that I do believe with 100% certainty, solely based on faith, and it matters in my life, because it gives my life direction. I am not waiting to see where it is going to take me, I already know where I am going. Unlike the person who gave you directions, I am sure you would drive away from them and say, I hope I am going in the right direction.
I am not sure where everyone else is going, and I do not believe anything anyone tells me about where others are going. I am just hoping and asking God all the time, that everyone will go to heaven, and all will be revealed to them, and then we all can have a big party one day.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 270 by CK, posted 05-22-2006 7:32 AM CK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 275 by CK, posted 05-22-2006 9:14 AM riVeRraT has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 273 of 310 (314282)
05-22-2006 8:55 AM
Reply to: Message 271 by Larni
05-22-2006 8:25 AM


Re: IMPORTANT DIFFERENCE
You may have the feeling of a gods existance but this does not make it so.
If it was just a feeling, I would doubt it more. I was only giving one example of what drives my faith. There are many more aspects of it, right here in this thread.
If there is a lot of correcting for me to do, please point them out and I will happili correct them for you.
I am not sure what you mean by that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by Larni, posted 05-22-2006 8:25 AM Larni has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 274 of 310 (314286)
05-22-2006 8:57 AM
Reply to: Message 269 by riVeRraT
05-22-2006 7:00 AM


When my boss says that we need five more pizzas made, I make them, I don't go to check if we are actually out of pizzas; I just do it.
quote:
Well that really has nothing to do with evidence does it?
It has everything to do with evidence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 269 by riVeRraT, posted 05-22-2006 7:00 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 276 by riVeRraT, posted 05-22-2006 9:27 AM nator has replied

CK
Member (Idle past 4127 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 275 of 310 (314289)
05-22-2006 9:14 AM
Reply to: Message 272 by riVeRraT
05-22-2006 8:52 AM


Re: Just not true.
quote:
Either way, your saying that you believe the directions that were given to you are 100% correct? Will you drive away from that person knowing 100% that you will arrive at the proper destination? OR will you be driving with an uncertainty, and hoping that person wasn't a flake and sent you 20 mins. out of your way?
That must be something cultural about America - here I'd just assume the directions were correct. It would never occur to be to think "oh my god what if he's a flake and sending me the wrong way!"
quote:
The point is, there is no reason to question any of this stuff, because it just doesn't matter. That doesn't mean you believe it with 100% certainty.
Wait - where did 100% certainty come from? Who mentioned that? Besides you?
I'm honestly not sure where this conversation is going anymore or even what you are trying to get at.
My position -
* I take many things on faith and my previous experience in that context and with that person.
* The more complex and important an issue to me the more likely I am going to search out addition evidence or information.
* The concept of Gods is not that important to me and I find no evidence of their existance or any reason to take their existance on faith.
Edited by CK, : No reason given.
Edited by CK, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 272 by riVeRraT, posted 05-22-2006 8:52 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 278 by riVeRraT, posted 05-22-2006 9:30 AM CK has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 276 of 310 (314294)
05-22-2006 9:27 AM
Reply to: Message 274 by nator
05-22-2006 8:57 AM


Which part of this statement has to do with evidence?
quote:
When my boss says that we need five more pizzas made, I make them, I don't go to check if we are actually out of pizzas; I just do it.
The part that his boss says He needs 5 pizzas?
Or the part were the boss says he is out of pizzas?
We are assuming that the boss needs 5 pizzas because he is actually out of them, based on the statement.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by nator, posted 05-22-2006 8:57 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 281 by nator, posted 05-22-2006 11:57 AM riVeRraT has not replied

RickJB
Member (Idle past 4990 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


Message 277 of 310 (314295)
05-22-2006 9:29 AM
Reply to: Message 270 by CK
05-22-2006 7:32 AM


Re: Just not true.
CK writes:
Let's take a simple example - when my significant other says she is going off to work - how do I know she is? she could be off meeting another boyfriend?
The analogy doesn't hold, CK. Even if you don't know where your girlfriend is, you CAN find out empirically. You can follow her and see where she goes. You can even take someone with you to confirm what you see. There's your evidence.
When it comes to the existence of God, however, no such option is open to you.
You are equating a lack of evidence with the ability to get it. When we say "lack of evidence" we mean that there is NO means of empirical confirmation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 270 by CK, posted 05-22-2006 7:32 AM CK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 279 by CK, posted 05-22-2006 9:33 AM RickJB has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 278 of 310 (314297)
05-22-2006 9:30 AM
Reply to: Message 275 by CK
05-22-2006 9:14 AM


Re: Just not true.
* I take many things on faith and my previous experience in that context and with that person.
* The more complex and important an issue to me the more likely I am going to search out addition evidence or information.
Those 2 statements conflict with each other.
Why do you need addtional evidence if you already take it on faith?
Maybe it is because you really don't believe it 100%.
The concept of Gods is not that important to me
I am not sure I believe that.
I find no evidence of their existance or any reason to take their existance on faith.
I do believe that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by CK, posted 05-22-2006 9:14 AM CK has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 280 by NosyNed, posted 05-22-2006 10:57 AM riVeRraT has not replied

CK
Member (Idle past 4127 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 279 of 310 (314299)
05-22-2006 9:33 AM
Reply to: Message 277 by RickJB
05-22-2006 9:29 AM


Re: Just not true.
Yes but RR's point was that "Many Atheists don't believe stuff without evidence".
The point is - I could go and get evidence but I don't - I take it on faith. All of us take multiple things on faith every day without requiring "evidence" from the people we interact with.
The fact that Evidence isavailable seems to be irrelevant to the point that I *thought* he was trying to make. Having said that - I'm increasingly confused what it is he IS trying to say
I think I'll stop at the point as I cannot actually be bothered to work out what it is we ARE talking about

This message is a reply to:
 Message 277 by RickJB, posted 05-22-2006 9:29 AM RickJB has not replied

NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 280 of 310 (314322)
05-22-2006 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 278 by riVeRraT
05-22-2006 9:30 AM


Re: Just not true.
* I take many things on faith and my previous experience in that context and with that person.
* The more complex and important an issue to me the more likely I am going to search out addition evidence or information.
Those 2 statements conflict with each other.
Why do you need addtional evidence if you already take it on faith?
Maybe it is because you really don't believe it 100%.
RR, you need to read more carefully. It is obvious what he is saying (or should be). More so when you read what many others have said.
Thinking that the 2 statements are contradictory reflects a non-black and white approach. They are not contradictory at all. He may take one thing totally on trust (we should define terms more carefully) based on how important it is or the context or the source person. He may be utterly sceptical of something else based on the same things. He may also take something as pretty sure but do a bit of checking for other things.
He is saying very clearly with those statements that he doesn't believe many, many things 100% but believes them well enough to act as it they are 100%.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by riVeRraT, posted 05-22-2006 9:30 AM riVeRraT has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 281 of 310 (314344)
05-22-2006 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 276 by riVeRraT
05-22-2006 9:27 AM


[quote]Which part of this statement has to do with evidence?
When my boss says that we need five more pizzas made, I make them, I don't go to check if we are actually out of pizzas; I just do it.
quote:
The part that his boss says He needs 5 pizzas?
Yes.
quote:
Or the part were the boss says he is out of pizzas?
Yes.
quote:
We are assuming that the boss needs 5 pizzas because he is actually out of them, based on the statement.
Right.
But we could check for the evidence that he needs them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by riVeRraT, posted 05-22-2006 9:27 AM riVeRraT has not replied

Jon
Inactive Member


Message 282 of 310 (314387)
05-22-2006 2:42 PM
Reply to: Message 269 by riVeRraT
05-22-2006 7:00 AM


Well that really has nothing to do with evidence does it?
Yes, it does have something to do with the evidence. My boss has the evidence at hand, and he/she made a decision based on it. I trusted his/her decision without having to see the evidence for myself. In a case like this, the evidence exists, but I am just trusting someone else to interpret it.
Like CK has said, though, it is really a case-by-case sort of thing. You can't group all the events in someone's life into one big pot as if they are all the same and hold an equal amount of importance.
I can say with authority that, yes, a good percentage of atheist do not believe in stuff without evidence, at least of some sort.
Why can you say that? What is this "authority" you are talking about? And what do you mean by "stuff"? In this case, I am very much unwilling to believe you based on just what you've said. I want some evidence in support.
Trék

This message is a reply to:
 Message 269 by riVeRraT, posted 05-22-2006 7:00 AM riVeRraT has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 283 by fefaith, posted 05-22-2006 3:09 PM Jon has replied

fefaith
Inactive Junior Member


Message 283 of 310 (314390)
05-22-2006 3:09 PM
Reply to: Message 282 by Jon
05-22-2006 2:42 PM


Hi, I just signed in today (Fate or destiny?), and I was browsing around (so much info), and stopped here. Some fascinating conclusions, I have been browsing by. Just to catch up it would take like a week or two of constant reading. I bet this topic can go on forever and ever. It would also forever and ever evolve and transform in contents until ..............
Why atheists don't beleive is still as unanswered as to why does anyone beleive? The concept of not beleiving starts with a beleif, and a beleif evolves around questionong. Aren't we all questioning?
Do we have to believe? It is impossible to be inanimated. Those chemical reactions inside of us will also cause a reaction to a stimulus. Atheists exists on the basis of of Theo. Divinity is just a rank among existence. Participating in ranks is done by choice. Having the ability to choose is a consequence of the motions of chemical reactions.
There is no black and white to this dilema. Nobody is right and nobody is wrong. It all boils down to chemical reactions. What contaminates our chemical processor (the brain and it's connections)has an effect on its production. If you sprinkle some faith you get a reaction, if you sprinkle doubt, you produce another reaction. It is chain reaction what makes one animated.
Maybe I am out of focus. Maybe not.
I still don't know why atheists don't beleive. I don't even know if they like pizza or if they just like to receive orders, or if they don't care at all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 282 by Jon, posted 05-22-2006 2:42 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 285 by Jon, posted 05-22-2006 3:42 PM fefaith has replied

nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 284 of 310 (314396)
05-22-2006 3:40 PM


Belief is cheap
The emphasis on belief is a mistake. Belief is cheap.
Example. Suppose my friend starts his own business, and tells me that it will be highly successful. There are several things I could do.
  • I could choose not to believe him.
  • I could decide to believe him.
  • I could invest on month's income in his business.
  • I could invest all of my savings (i.e. bet the farm) on the success of his business.
    Belief or disbelief, the first two options, come cheaply. The investment options are more difficult, and should require a more evidence than the belief options. In particular the last option (betting the farm) should require a great deal of supporting evidence.
    I can illustrate with an example from mathematics. A decade ago, a proof was given of Fermat's last theorem. I don't have any difficulty believing that. I'm willing to trust the word of those who say that they have checked the proof. But such belief is cheap. If I wanted to prove some other important mathematical result that depended on Fermat's last theorem, then I would feel obliged to carefully verify the correctness of Wile's proof (or some other proof) myself. I can believe cheaply, but only because it doesn't much matter.
    Evangelical Christians are misleading with respect to belief involved with religion. They repeatedly assert that what is required is belief. However, in fact, they expect you to bet the farm, and will be skeptical that you are a Christian unless you bet the farm.

  • Jon
    Inactive Member


    Message 285 of 310 (314398)
    05-22-2006 3:42 PM
    Reply to: Message 283 by fefaith
    05-22-2006 3:09 PM


    The concept of not beleiving starts with a beleif, and a beleif evolves around questionong. Aren't we all questioning?
    I don't think I agree with this. I would assume that not believing is where it starts. The default position is a position of non-belief, and the position of belief only comes after. You have the order a little twisted.
    It all boils down to chemical reactions. What contaminates our chemical processor (the brain and it's connections)has an effect on its production. If you sprinkle some faith you get a reaction, if you sprinkle doubt, you produce another reaction.
    The problem, is that you are seemingly talking about real chemical reactions. However, the last time I checked, faith and doubt were not elements on the Periodic Table. You can't cause reactions by sprinkling fairy dust on the brain.
    I don't even know if they like pizza
    Well, I'm pretty sure I do like pizza. Then again, I'm not atheist.
    Trék

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 283 by fefaith, posted 05-22-2006 3:09 PM fefaith has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 290 by fefaith, posted 05-22-2006 5:07 PM Jon has replied

    Newer Topic | Older Topic
    Jump to:


    Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

    ™ Version 4.2
    Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024