The Fires of Hell Have Gone Out: No Eternal Torment

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1. I did address your message 217. I said it is irrevelant to this debate and you have not shown that it is. If you choose to pick and choose what is valid scripture and what is not, we're wasting our time since all you need do then is X out what is nonsupportive of your position.
2. When Jesus comes is also irrevelant so long as both end up in the same place ultimately. So it's essentially an off topic strawman which does nothing to bolster your looser argument.

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In response to a Faith's Message 191, in Message 196 I gave a very respectful explanation of how I study the Bible. So when you asked the question: I clarified that I assumed you had read the previous posts and asked that you keep that in mind. Because I do know that you have a lot of years of Bible Study under your belt, I trusted that you would explain why you feel my understanding is wrong or contradictory instead of just saying it. I'm truly disappointed.So back to Message 1.No one has clearly shown me that Gehenna, which has been erroneously translated as "hell", was an example of eternal (unending) torment.No one has clearly shown me that the Lake of Fire, which is only mentioned in Revelation, is referring to Gehenna or vice versa other than by tradition.No one has clearly shown me that my conclusions are wrong. I've been told, but no one has clearly shown me my error given my unique way of reading the authors of the Bible.I can't rethink my conclusions if I'm not given anything to think about.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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The point here is not that there can be no temporary punishment with that which is designed to punish forever.

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I didn't say that there could. Punishment is a penalty imposed on an offender for wrongdoing. Ceasing to exist is a very permanent and unending penalty, but it isn't torment.

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Now, Mark 9:48 says of Gehenna, a place of unquencahble fire (v.43) - "where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."

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The verse concerning the worms refers back to Isaiah 66:24 which is written in a poetic style. It is a very creative way of writing, not really to be taken as literal as you seem to be.Gehenna is the name of a very real place and carried the message that to have your body cast in that pit meant you were a criminal and were unworthy of burial or resurrection.Again, in the Book of Mark, Jesus was speaking before his death about an imminent judgment that didn't come about, not the final judgment he showed in the vision.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

Actually the reference Jesus makes to Gehenna in Chapter 9 of Mark isn't really comparing it with anything. This is the only reference to Gehenna in the book of Mark and there is no reference to Hades.Now Jesus is talking with his disciples. When he says these words, his disciples only have access to Isaiah, not Matthew, Luke, Paul's letters or the book of Revelation.IMO, it would be like someone saying it is better to go through life maimed instead of getting thrown into Alcatraz. That statement would have more impact when said while Alcatraz was a functioning prison. Today it doesn't carry the same weight since Alcatraz is closed.Gehenna was an actual place at the time Jesus was speaking. So if Jesus used the actual Gehenna as an illustration, then he gave no name for the event he was actually describing.The word Gehenna doesn't have the same impact today, since it isn't a place for criminals etc. anymore.The reference to the worms "not perishing" doesn't mean they don't die, but that maggots are always present in that place because there was always decaying carcasses or garbage. Not a vision of torment, eternal or otherwise.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

So much for just Mark.

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The place Gehenna is a place of eternal punishment.

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But not eternal torment. That is not the picture painted in Mark.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

Interesting you ask if my interpretation causes one to take warning, when you don't truly understand my interpretation.The actual Gehenna was a very real possibility for the wicked at that time and his audience knew it. Destruction of the body in such a manner meant no place in the world to come. No resurrection. Jesus was teaching about sin, not salvation. It was a serious warning at the time.The use of Gehenna in the book of Mark has nothing to do with the Lake of Fire and does not illustrate torment.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

Then show me how the proper name, Gehenna, deals with anything but the local dump in the book of Mark. It was the name of an existing place at the time of Jesus.I've made no secret of the fact that I don't abide by Church tradition if there is no clear basis for it in the Bible.If there is no basis for it in the Bible, then I feel it is important to understand the reason for the tradition.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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Simply to say that something Jesus prophesied "didn't happen" makes your views so alien I find it hard even to try to follow your arguments.

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Oddly enough the postponement of the judgment is left over from when I listened to seminary-trained pastors.The churches I have been a part of taught that the judgment was postponed due to the unbelief of the majority of the Jews. I think it is alluded to in one of Paul's letters. I haven't had the time to look yet. But that is supposedly why Paul is gathering the Gentiles. They are to make the Jews jealous who would in turn believe and then the judgment would come about.I'm not saying it didn't happen because Jesus was wrong, I'm saying it didn't happen becuase God showed mercy on his people.Obviously I didn't go to a fundamentalist church.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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Life in the passage means something different than just living. It is talking about a fulfilling abundant glorious state in heaven. It is not talking about just existing.

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Where is that explained in the Bible? So what is being tormented?

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So eternal damnation exists. If you don't accept Christ as your personal lord and savior you goto hell. Period. Thats the way it is. End of story.

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Unfortunately the wrong story.I didn't say that unending damnation didn't exist. I stated that unending torment isn't what Gehenna describes.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

Slightly off topic, but not bad if we or others don't pursue it.

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What denominations were these, if you don't mind saying?

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I grew up in a very small Christian Church (Disciples of Christ) and whenever I relocate, I've stayed with that group. Sometimes the church is large, sometimes not.

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Apparently you found their views convincing.

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I grew up in the church, there wasn't any need for convincing. Their view was all I was taught. So it lingers in my brain.As an adult I delved deeper into serious Bible Study and found seminary trained pastors tend to contradict themsleves and that the Bible wasn't always supporting what they said.Looking at Gehenna as it was probably intended for the original audience, doesn't negate or lessen any final judgment.

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But you have a completely different view of God's work than I do -- you think God can change His mind, or that human circumstances cause Him to change plans,

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Yes I do. Of course, I don't read the comments concerning Gehenna in the book of Mark as a prophecy. IMO, this sentence sums up the point of the narrative: Have salt in yourselves, and be at peace with each other.

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It has to mean something other than you read it to mean.

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Hence the reason for this discussion.In Mark what did Jesus really mean when he spoke to his disciples concerning Gehenna or was Gehenna even the point?

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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You have created a false dichotomy. You are saying the teaching has to be only a prophecy or only a teaching about some immediate behavioral situation.

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Why do you persist in changing what I say I do or feel into an assertion? I didn't say the teaching had to be anything. I said I don't read it that way. IOW, I don't understand it as a prophecy the way it is written.Please stop changing what I say.

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I see no reason to use the teaching to deny future accountability which is the force that makes the immediate application have impact.

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You really don't have any clue what I'm talking about. Again, my argument concerning Gehenna doesn't negate any future accountability.

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Basically, perhaps all of this thread is just an ex Disciples of Christ church kid saying "I'm tired of being threatened." I sympathize with you some.

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Wrong again. Please keep to addressing the position and not characterizing me.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

Hey Faith,
I'm not ignoring your post and I want to address it, but to do it justice takes some time.I'm trying to get some planting done before it rains again and I'm helping my daughter with her first child, plus repainting my front room. Oh and I'm making new curtains. I keep checking the board to reread where we are in this discussion and reading the Bible inbetween taking care of other things. I haven't disappeared just really really busy in the world outside EvC.Have a great weekend. Hopefully I'll have my thoughts in order next week.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

Hey Faith,I finally got it together. I did this in bits and pieces when I had time, so I hope it flows.I did read your posts numbers 189 and 284 (with the edits). This post is in response to those posts. For anyone wanting to respond to my post, please make sure you have read Message 189 and Message 284 by Faith so you understand my response.Concerning my OP statement: If one was to receive eternal torment as taught, then the person would still be "living". IOW being tormented throughout his eternal life, but this verse states that only the righteous receive eternal life.In Message 189
If I understand you correctly, you are saying that eternal life really deals with the quality of life and not duration or unending existence. So when we look at the Matthew verse from the OP: It is actually saying: These will go away into an age (not unending) of punishment (not a good life), but the righteous into an age of life (a good life filled with God’s blessings). Even in this verse by Paul it would mean quality of life and not an unending existence. This would also be consistent with this verse from 1 John. “Eternal Life” would be the quality of life within the person.If this is what you are telling me, then there still isn’t any unending torment through endless time. One may have a tormented life without God, but it will end when the person dies. So it is a lifetime of torment or punishment, but not torment without end.So my premise may have been wrong concerning the OP statement I quoted above, but what you are presenting, if I understand it correctly, would lead me to the same conclusion that there is no unending torment.As far as whether all will be resurrected, I haven’t had time to look at that in relation to this new info you have presented to me and it would probably be a whole other topic worth of discussion on that. Obviously more than we have left in this thread. But it is something I will look into.Now to Gehenna, which is my main point in this thread.In Message 284
Unquenchable is another word I think has been misunderstood. It also doesn’t mean unending. An unquenchable fire is one that can’t be put out, but it will only keep burning until there is nothing left to burn then it will go out. No fuel, no fire. The fire in Gehenna did go out once they stopped throwing bodies and renewing the fuel source. There is still no fire today.The worm that does not die is another visual aid that I feel is being misunderstood. It isn’t talking about worms that never die. We know it is a reference back to Isaiah 66 where Isaiah describes the final end of the wicked. The righteous will be able to view the completed destruction of those who rejected God. "They shall go forth and look on the corpses of those who have rebelled against God; where their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched" (Isa. 66:24).So the lesson in Mark 9:33-50 (Luke 9:46-50 and Matthew 18:1-14) is not using Gehenna as a visual for unending torment. It is the city garbage dump. The fire is constant because the fuel source is constant, the worms are constant because they feed off the constant source of corpses that are not being consumed by the fire. It is not an undying worm, but maggots that are constantly reproducing and constantly present in that pit. The maggots are all gone now. It was a place of destruction, not torture. Now putting all this together with what you told me about “life” this statement today would be equivalent to:If your hand causes you to do wrong, cut if off, it is better for you to enter your life with God crippled, than, having your two hands and end up on death row.IMO, Jesus is addressing a quality of current life, not a future unending life. Gehenna then is like death row now.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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No one has proved why all those who are assigned their lot in the lake of fire should have a different result.

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I'm not talking about the Lake of Fire.
I'm not talking about the Lake of Fire.
I'm not talking about the Lake of Fire.
I'm not talking about the Lake of Fire.
I'm not talking about the Lake of Fire.
I'm not talking about the Lake of Fire.Have I mentioned I'm not talking about the lake of fire?Gehenna is not the lake of fire and I don't think you have shown that it is. It was an acutal place at the time of the spoken words and still is. There is no fire there today. It is not a symbol of unending torment.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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In your Topic Heading you wrote:

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Actually I wrote: The Fires of Hell Have Gone Out: No Eternal Torment and then proceeded to explain my position in Message 1. The heading is not the argument. The heading is to catch the attention of readers and give a general idea of what to expect within the thread. Like the headline of a newspaper. The title is not the whole story. I'm addressing the usage of Gehenna

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Is there a real significant difference between the concept of Gehenna as Christ used it and the lake of fire as used by His apostle? You haven't shown a significant difference.

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And you haven't shown they are the same either. See Message 20, Message 188, Message 203, Message 217, and especially Message 264.

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You attempt to show that Christ was refering to the literal Gehenna which we all know is no longer burning. You have not successfully proved that that is what He really meant by a place:

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1.) The fire of which is never quenched
2.) The sinner's worm never dies

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How was Message 289 unsuccessful at explaining these as they were used in the Book of Mark? As I've said, in the Book of Mark, Jesus is not comparing Gehenna to anything, therefore I feel that he is referring to the actual place.

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3.) Where God excercises an authority beyond man's to cast a sinner there.

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This one is used in Matthew 10 and from what I can tell Jesus is essentially telling his disciples not to fear death incurred because of their faith.I don't read it as saying only God has authority to cast someone in Gehenna. This talks more of ability than authority.But again, even this verse talks of destruction, not unending torture.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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You will have to prove that the fires in Hades also extinguish for some reason.

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No I don't. Gehenna and Hades are not the same. Hades is not translated "Hell" in my Bible. Also remember that Hades is thrown into your lake of fire. So if your lake of fire is hell, then Hades isn't. If Hades is Hell, then the lake of fire isn't.I have no problem with Hades being called Hell. Hades is considered underground and that is essentially what hell means Message 185. But Hades, as pointed out earlier Message 184 and as the parable depicts, has two sections (Tartarus-fire and Elysium-paradise). So if you call Hades, Hell, then you have to say which side. If Hell is the hot side of Hades, then Hell and Hades are not equivalent.In the parable Message 35, Lazarus and the Rich Man found in the Book of Luke, the word Gehenna is not used. Jesus was speaking of Hades, the underworld. Gehenna and Hades are not the same and I haven't said that they are. I understand the lesson of the parable.When Jesus is talking with his disciples in the Book of Mark he is not telling them a parable. In Luke, Jesus is telling a parable.Not much else I can say. You don't seem to understand what I am saying, so it is very hard to discuss possibilities.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz