The Fires of Hell Have Gone Out: No Eternal Torment

1. As Modulous has already said, I believe, if the fire devours, why would the rich man be so concerned that his brothers might end up in the same torment he is experiencing? Whenever Jesus used parables, it was so designated in terms somewhat like "Hear you therefore the parable of the sower............Another parable he put forth to them.......Another parable he spoke to them....et al.
Not so with the rich man and Lazarus. He said something like, "there was a certain rich man......" In this account he named Lazarus and Moses, real people.I'm not sure whether this has been mentioned, but Jesus told Judas that it would have been better for him if he had never been born, implicating that death wasn't the end.Also Jesus said that in the judgement some would receive greater punishment than others. If punishment was terminal death, what difference would it make?There are several texts which imply that there are two compartments to Hades, one for the good dead awaiting resurrection and the other where the tormenting fire is. The rich man/Lazarus account is one of them. Also in Acts 2:31 it says Jesus would not be left in Hell/Hades. After his resurrecton is says somewhere that he went to the heart of the earth and "took captivity captive," implying that he would take them out with him at his resurrection. It also says after his death that some in the graves came out. I haven't taken the time to look up the texts, but could do so if someone wants them.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW

I believe the reason is that humans were created in the image of God, i.e. as eternal beings as is God. We are not brute unintelligent animals which die like dogs. We have an eternal soul which, once created cannot cease to exist. Adam and Eve were created perfect. Satan also was created perfect. Satan and his rebel angels chose to rebel/disobey. Satan coerced Adam and Eve to rebel/disobey also. Thus the fall and thus the need for sacrificial redemption for reconcillation to God. The price was great, i.e. death of God's son, Jesus. Thus the punishment great also for rejection of God's redemption.Having said the above, I don't like a fiery hell. I hate to think of anyone going to such a place of eternal torment. Being a selfish soul, I decided a long time ago that I wasn't going to chance the possibility of going to such a place, so I received the redemption via Jesus, the savior. I'm totally convinced that now I needn't worry. I have peace with God. I fear God with a great sense of respect and awe for the creator and manager of the universe.I hope I'm wrong about hell, but being a fundamentalist who takes God's words at face value, I fear that the Bible means what it says about eternal torment. That had a lot to do with my conversion in the first place and it has a lot to do with keeping me on the narrow path that leads to life and keeping me from doing evil. In the meantime I find that life works well by applying all the Biblical principles, including the remedy for the hell fire problem.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW

But madear, what then do you do with these words of Jesus in Matthew 25:41?

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW

Your problem is that you're seeing Matthew and John in Revelation as contradictory. You're picking and choosing as to what texts you want to cannonize as accurate and what you want to reject. I don't do that. I see Matthew and John in Revelation as compatible, the one expanding on the other as to the total picture/doctrine. By your strategy of applying the NT as a smorgasboard from which you are allowed to pick and choose to adjust to your personal views essentialy reduces the Bible to what each reader wishes to have it say.Both texts in Matthew and Revelation are essentially the words of Jesus. Jesus was consistent and never contradicted himself when you consider total context.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW

My dear, you certainly have a strange way of going at the Bible. Who cares when each NT book was written, so long as they're all within the same dispensation of God's economy? It's quite irrevelant as to establishing doctrinal perameters.For all practical purposes, if Matthew mentions hell fire, it's as good as if every one of the gospels mentions it, if indeed the NT is Holy Spirit inspired. If you want to begin chipping away at what's acceptable and God imspired, then you might as well throw it all out as uninspired, leaving yourself as judge. God has allowed Matthew to remain unchallenged for 20 centuries. Likely if he didn't want it included it'd have been out a long time ago. I've studied the Bible daily for 60 years and I see no significant problem at all with contradictions. Any problems I've encountered are really nonessential and insignificant for establishing essential doctrine.What specifically is your problem with Matt 25:41 relative to Rev 20:10? Why is it unreasonable to crossreference them in order to get the whole picture?

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW

I'd like to respond also to this question to Faith. I hope you don't mind. 1. You allege that the torment/lake of fire is only for the devil and his angels, as per Rev 20:10.2. You appear to have a problem with Matt where in 25:41 Jesus says in the judgement, some human folks will be cast into that same place of eternal torment "prepared for the devil and his angels."3. For you to have your cake and eat it too, so to speak, in your opinion, there's a contradition.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW

You make a good point, Ringo, but this roof seems to be coming out just fine in favor of Biblical harmony.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW

You seem to miss my point, being that when you crossreference the Rev text with the Matthew text you come up with the same place for the devil, his angels and people.Abe: I believe this is Jaywill's argument also.This message has been edited by buzsaw, 05-13-2006 09:01 AM

Hi Ringo. Go to my Message 214 and you have the evidence for what you requested. What do you do with that evidence, my friend?1. Rev 20:10 = Devil and angels tormented in lake of fire.
2. Matt (abe:25:41) = Folks on left cast into lake of fire prepared for devil and angels.
3. (abe: How about interpreting as per what is written as we do with other textbooks in life?)Edited by buzsaw, : No reason given.Edited by buzsaw, : Abe: 3. How about interpreting at face value as per what is written, like we do with other our other textbooks in life? Edited by buzsaw, : No reason given.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW

1. You're not making sense. Everlasting fire means just that with no mention of fuel consumed.2. Add to these the account of the rich man being tormented and not consumed as well as other texts with similar implications. You become very hard pressed to justify your position. It appears that come hell or high water you're not going to be convinced so if this doesn't do it I give up, not on my position, but on convincing you of this obvious truth about what the Bible says.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW

1. I did address your message 217. I said it is irrevelant to this debate and you have not shown that it is. If you choose to pick and choose what is valid scripture and what is not, we're wasting our time since all you need do then is X out what is nonsupportive of your position.2. When Jesus comes is also irrevelant so long as both end up in the same place ultimately. So it's essentially an off topic strawman which does nothing to bolster your looser argument.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW

some good points here Faith and I might add that we have a remarkable track record on those prophesies which have been fulfilled, though that is not the topic here for documentation. LOL on any interest or admissions of this by our secularist friends, however.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW

Well if nothing any of us have said in these ten pages to give you anything to think about on this debate, all I can say is I'm not wasting anymore of my time trying. Your mind is set on this, regardless of what is said.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW

I goofed. Edited by buzsaw, : No reason given.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW