The Fires of Hell Have Gone Out: No Eternal Torment

I have coined this a "Red Letter Argument". And what I mean by that is that in some Bibles the direct quotes of Jesus are printed in red letters. The rest is in black print. (Usually only the synoptic gospels count).Some skeptical types like to assume that only what is in the red letters is what Jesus taught. The surrounding comments of the evangelists, the epistles, the book of Revelation, and the general teaching of the apostles and writers of the New Testament which are in black print, are the various mistakes and blunders which ruin what is in the red letters.Christ sent His apostles to teach all that He taught. Basically the "Red Letter Argument" is an argument that the apostles of Christ cannot be trusted to have passed on to us what Jesus taught.Under closer examination "Red Letter Arguments" usually reveal that the skeptic doesn't even except everything in the red letters either.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I realize that Jesus was alluding to what was written in Isaiah. I don't think that changes anything. That it is poetic language doesn't change anything. The Holy Spirit is simply speaking poetically about damnation. Since the precise nature of it is beyond the experience of the living it is not surprising that it is spoken of in poetic terms about flame and worms. The essential message is communicated quite well. And to misunderstanding takes more laborious work than to understand it.Incidently, I believe that the Old Testament also refers to everlasting punishment in the book of Daniel:"And many of those who are sleeping in the dust of the ground will awake, some to life eternal and some to reproach and eternal contempt." (Dan. 12:2) The judgment of the sheep and the goat nations follows His long discorse about His second coming in chapter 24. So how ever soon He returns to establish His reign on the earth determines how soon that judgement is to occur.Now the judgment in Mark 9:38-50 is actually a teaching directly to His disciples. And the warning of the punishment of Gehenna is to His disciples. This, I admit, is not exactly the same as His warning of about the sheep and goat nations.And I believe that the warning is given in Mark 9:38-50 to those for whom the question of eternal salvation is solved. This presents an interesting situation. And it is this difference that I alluded to when I gave a caveat that my explanation of Mark 9:47,48 was not meant to teach that no one could be temporarily punished by a torment that is designed to be eternal.This teaching of Mark 9:47,48 should be companioned with Revelation 2:11 and Revelation 3:5. The three verses, in my opinion, all speak of the warning to Christians, that they could be hurt, if not eternally punished, by the Lord's discipline after His second coming.I do not mean Purgatory. I mean that the Divine Judge has more latitude than we usually imagine to deal with a large scope of experiences. The saved disciple who warrants such severe discipline might be hurt by the second death. The saved disciple might have his name temporarily erased from the book of life. And the saved disciple might find that not overcoming certaain besetting sins might be temporarily treated as the unbeliever.And it is at this point that my understanding of Mark 9:46,47; Rev.2:11, and Rev. 3:5 differs from the standard mainstream evangelical understanding.Basically, in brief, just as the worldly judges have a much lattitude as to how they deal with an offense, so does the Judge of the whole earth. A worldly judge may deal with the offender stiffly, mercifully, or anywhere inbetween. He or she may assign community service as a punishment. She or he may assign time in jail. He or she may assign time with a suspended sentence.After much careful consideration of all that the Bible says, I have decided that some verses which appear to refer to those eternally lost actually refer to those who are eternally saved yet must be dispensationally and temporarily punished for something.And this fact does influence the Universalist some plausible, if not fully justifiable suspicion that all punishment is temporary.Having said that let me review Mark 9:47,48 again this way. The warning is to Christ's disciples. The place is a place of eternal punishment and some will go there eternally. But during the millennial kingdom some disciples may be in need of a discipline which would involve temporarily that punishment.Concerning His own disciples and servants Jesus said "The master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know, and will cut him asunder, and will appoint his portion with the unbelievers.

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And that slave who knew his master's will and did not prepare or do according to his will, will receive many lashes; But he who did not know, yet did things worthy of stripes, will receive few lashes. But to every one to whom much has been given, much will be required from him; and to whom much has been committed, they will ask of him all the more. (Luke 12:46-48)Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

First, let's consider Purpledawn's point here. Purpledawn goes on to quote in detail Mark 9:40-50. Actually, there is quite a bit of correspendence between Matthew 25:31-46 and Mark 9 specifically verses 41:"For whoever gives you a cup of water to drink because you bear the name that you are Christ's, truly I say to you that he shall by no means lose his reward"Now in the passage of Matthew 25 some who clothed, visited, fed, and otherwise were kind to the least of the Lord's brothers are rewarded with going into eternal life. They have been kind to a prophet and received for their kindness a prophet's reward. Conversely, those who adopted an unfriendly and negligent attitude towards the least of the Lord's brothers go into eternal punishment.What this means is that at the time of the second coming some nations will be alive on the earth. Some aligned themselves with Antichrist who will be a great persecutor of the Christians and Jews. And some other nations will receive the refugee Christians and Jews who are sick, ill-clothed, unable to buy or sell, imprisioned and otherwise persecuted within the realm of the Antichrist. The kind nations will be the sheep. And the unkind nations who would not help the persecuted brothers of the Lord Jesus will be punished with eternal fire.The judgment of Matthew 25:31-46 is particular, IMO. It is not the general gospel of grace being portrayed there as preached by the apostles. It is a special circumstance related to the previous events foretold in chapter 24 about the end times.My point here is to show only that a principle at work in Matthew 25:31-46 is also at work in Mark 9:41. Because someone has helped a prophet she receives a prophet's reward, under some particular circumstances.The rest of Christ's comments in Mark 9:38-50 are directed to keeping His disciples in an attitude of tolerance and unity. They are not to be a stumbling block to one another. And further they are not to be a stumbling block to themselves. They must deal with the motive of sin seriously. It is better that they go into the kingdom without an offending physical member like a sinning eye, a sinning hand or foot, rather than be punished in a fire of Gehenna.I don't think that Jesus meant His disciples should literally pluck out an eye which continually gives lustful looks, or amputate a foot which wanders into sinful places, or cut off a hand which tends to steal. I do think He meant that one has to deal with such sins seriously at any cost. Otherwise instead of being rewarded when He comes he is in danger of being punished simliarly to how an unbeliever who is eternally lost would be punished.In all this it should be remembered that it is through the Spirit that Paul said he put to death the practices of the body in Romans chapter 6. Through the grace of the Holy Spirit one can put to death besetting sins of the members of our body. Physical amputation is not what is being taught.The place Gehenna is a place of eternal punishment. But in some cases the redeemed are warned that practical righteousness is what the Lord Jesus is looking for. And division, lack of tolerance, and besetting sinful living can be temporarily punished even to a disciple of Jesus in the coming age.Mark 9:38-50 holds some principles seen in Matthew 25. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

The analogy is not that bad. Except that verse 48 says the worm does not die and the fire is not quenched. So many of us realize that He was not talking about the city's trash dump. He was using Gehenna to signify something everlastingly unpleasant for the individual going there. Again, the phrase "their worm" is rather personal. Does it matter that He didn't add "And incidently, I am refering to the lake of fire which you will read about latter in the book of Revelation which hasn't yet been written. Stay tuned."Verse 42 speaks illustratively about being thrown into the sea with a millstone around one's neck. And verse 45 speaks illustratively about Gehenna of unquenchable fire. In other words Purpledawn believes that in Mark 9 Jesus was warning His disciples that it was better enter into the kingdom of God (something of grand significance and eternal relevancy) than to be thrown into the city dump (something temporal and of limited relevancy).This is like saying that in verse 42 instead of entering into the kingdom all others will have a millstone tied to their neck and drowned supposedly some nearby sea.Christ here, is not speaking of trivialites but of things of grand and weighty significance. And one must be childlike in his reception of them as He goes on to say:"Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a little child shall by no means enter into it." (10:15)Mark 9:38-50 communicates in a simple manner the contrast between His kingdom and His punishment of unquenchable fire. We should receive it in simplicity. In Gehenna your gnawing worm will not die and the fire does not go out forever. So avoid the place at any cost.Let me ask all readers a question. Does Purpledawn's interpretation tend to cause you to take the warning more seriously or less seriously? Does it cause you to tremble and look to the grace and mercy of God to stay out of such a fate? Or does her interpretation cause you more a feeling to relax, not be too concerned, and just calmly regard the warning as a trivial historical perculiarity?Now compare your reaction to the tone of the warning and decide which reaction is in harmony with Christ's tone. In other words. "Don't be too concerned with Christ's warning. Relax. Don't take it too seriously. Gehenna burning trash dump went out long ago. Stumbling one another or stumbling yourself with your sinful members is not too serious afterall."After Purpledawn waters down the Bible for you it will have about the same impact as Grimm's fairy tales. I prefer to take it in the tone and with the significance that Jesus delivered it. A nonexistent person owns nothing, not even a worm. The phrase "their worm" is intensely personal. It is not maggots. It is YOUR maggots.Disentigration and dissolution are not conveyed but perpetual and personal decay and corruption.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

So purpledawn holds that it was indeed a serious warning to the first century disciples of Christ but much less so today. Gehenna has long been extinguished like a dormant volcano and we need not be concerned today, according to Purpledawn.I don't think this is reliable either. Christ refered to Isaiah's prophecy in Isaiah 66. But that prophecy clearly is a prediction of a future age:"For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I make, remain before Me, declares Jehovah, so will your seed and your name remain.

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And from new moon to new moon and from Sabbath to Sabbath all flesh will come to bow down before Me, says Jehovah.

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And they will go forth and look on the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against Me; for their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched; And they shall be abhorence to all flesh." (Isaiah 66:22-24)Christ refered Isaiah's prophecy of a grand Messianic era in which natural world too will be effected by God's creative acts. If Jesus used words from this prophecy it is logical to assume that He was warning them about the culmination of God's work at the end of history as we know it.Far off into the future at the end of God's work world wide the Gehenna of unquenchable fire was a place to avoid at any cost. Similiarly in Daniel we have this:" ... and at that time your people, every one found written in the book, will be delivered.

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And many of those who are sleeping in the dust of the ground will awake, some to life eternal and some to reproach, to eternal contempt. (Dan,1c-2)So the teaching's relation to the lake of fire in Revelation is more likely rather than less.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

You have created a false dichotomy. You are saying the teaching has to be only a prophecy or only a teaching about some immediate behavioral situation.Of course Christ could utter something prophetic about the future with a lesson in it applicable to their immediate daily life.If you want to say that you're more impressed with how Jesus is teaching His disciples to be at peace with one another, that's fine. I fully agree. I see no reason to use the teaching to deny future accountability which is the force that makes the immediate application have impact.Basically, perhaps all of this thread is just an ex Disciples of Christ church kid saying "I'm tired of being threatened." I sympathize with you some.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Huh, Am I really doing that? Sorry.Anyway I think we've both made our positions clear.

Further proof of the falsity of the Annhilation concept as eternal punishment:"And it was given them that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months; and their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it strikes a man. And in those days men will seek death and shall by no means find it; and they will long to die, and death flees from them" (Rev. 9:5,6).Men will long to die because they think dying will release them from torment.They think then that annhilation is not punishment but release from it. To not be, to be dead, they regard as the cessation of torment. God causes death to allude them though they seek it. This punishment lasts five months and death or annhilation will not release men from it.Annhilation and death is sought by these men because it is deemed an escape from harm inflicted upon them. It is atypical and a false doctrine to teach that annhilation of non-existence is the topmost dread that sinners should fear from God's judgment. Revelation 9:4,5 proves that it is more typical that man seeks annhilation to escape from tormenting judgment.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

purpledawn writes: However, after one thousand years the false prophet and the Antichrist are still being tormented in the fire when they are joined by their master the devil:"And the devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where also the beast and the false prophet were; and THEY will be tormented day and night forever and ever. [my emphasis] (Rev. 20:10)Notice that the two previous people were cast into the fire 1,000 years earlier. See Revelation 19:20 and 20:1-6. When the devil arrives there the antichrist and the false prophet are still there. They have not been consumed. And it does not say that only the devil will be tormented day and night forever and ever, but "they". And why? Because "they" have not nor will not be consumed into annhilation.The Bible went out of its way to make sure that we all understood. The lost are not annhilated but eternally punished in torment. No one has proved why all those who are assigned their lot in the lake of fire should have a different result.Whoseoever believes in Jesus the Son of God should not perish but have eternal life. See John 3:16.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Why in the topic do you write "No Eternal Torment"?Did you think you would "kill two birds with one stone" or what?And even if you are not talking about the lake of fire (or think you are not), some of us have shown that your interpretation of Christ's usage of "Gehenna" is not right either.As Christ uses Gehenna, He WAS talking about eternal torment. That is what I think you have not refuted.If man has authority to cast a corpse into the city dump of Gehenna then why does Jesus warn of God's additional authority to do so after one has been killed? Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Purpledawn, In your Topic Heading you wrote:"No Eternal Torment"
"No Eternal Torment"
"No Eternal Torment"
"No Eternal Torment"
"No Eternal Torment"
"No Eternal Torment"Did you realize that you were talking about "Eternal Torment?"Is there a real significant difference between the concept of Gehenna as Christ used it and the lake of fire as used by His apostle? You haven't shown a significant difference.You attempt to show that Christ was refering to the literal Gehenna which we all know is no longer burning. You have not successfully proved that that is what He really meant by a place:1.) The fire of which is never quenched
2.) The sinner's worm never dies
3.) Where God excercises an authority beyond man's to cast a sinner there.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Newspapers and magazines often employ sensational in their titles to attract attention. Sometimes such tactics are downright deceptive. I once could not resist buying a science magazine which said this: “Can The Future Exist if a Black Hole Swallows the Past?” After reading the article I felt taken. It was not really about a black hole swallowing the past but swallowing evidence of certain physical objects that once existed.But the advertizing sure worked to get me to purchase the magazine. Okay, you want a little license to spruce up your advertizing a little . “No Eternal Torment.” But what you really want to talk about is how the city dump in Jerusalem has burned out.Mind you that I could easily do the same thing. I could say “Most Christians are Going to Hell.” I bet that would get a lot of attention. But since Hell is really Hades I would be really saying that most Christians have died or will die. And Hades is just the realm of the those who have ceased physical life. So I understand that you wanted to get an eye catching sensational topic description. Hell or Hades has its comfortable section and its uncomfortable section. The rich man went to Hades and was in the flame in Luke’s gospel. That fire or “fire” or torment has NOTHING to do with what goes on in the valley of Hinnom. The smoldering out of the valley of Hinnom has no effect on the fire of Hades in which the lost rich man found himself:” . and the rich man also died and was buried. And in Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham from afar and Lazarus in his bosom. And he called out abd said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in anguish in this flame.” (Luke 16:21b-24)It does not say that the rich man was put into Gehenna, the burning city dump. It says he died and was buried. He had a proper burial rather have his corpse tossed into the trash. He was in a tormenting flame in Hades. There is no relation to the rich man in Hades in a flame with the smoldering corpses in the valley of Hinnom. Therefore the extinguishing of that valley’s fires have no effect on the rich man’s suffering in Hades.You will have to prove that the fires in Hades also extinguish for some reason.The objection put forth by some, if not by you, is that this is a parable. In other words it is fiction. They MEAN that it never really happened if it is a fiction. I saw no convincing argument that Luke 16:19-31 was not something which Christ witnessed. He mentions no person’s name in any parable - i.e. “Lazarus.” I think someone tried to refute this.But the whole idea of Christ speaking fictitiously about a dead man’s corpse talking in the valley of Hinnom to Abraham and Lazarus within earshot is ridiculous. If such an event was impossible why would Christ use such fantastic descriptions as the ground for serious moral warnings?Does the Department of Motor Vehicles warn citizens not to violate traffic laws with stories about the Boogy Man coming to punish violators? Who would take that seriously? Why would Jesus warn us with a frivolous and impossible fictitious fable?Any objections based on the science of the matter can be refuted by reminding the reader that “The Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of trial and how to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment” (2 Peter 2:9). Though I don’t know how God keeps the unrighteous under punishment as far as the science of it goes, God knows how. So we should be warned and believe accordingly that the authority and power to punish that immaterial part of man’s being, He possesses after one has died and been buried.To communicate such a simple truth to us who are yet alive Christ was quite effective with this record of Luke 16:19-31. And I think we ignore it or explain it away at our own peril. The facts of Luke 16:19-31 and the teaching of Christ concering Gehenna are in harmony:God displayed His authority to hurt the rich man AFTER he had died. And He teaches the same using the term Gehenna. To fear those who can only kill the body and have no more that they can do to you, is not the greater fear. The greater fear should be reserved for God, who after you have died, has the authority to cast you into a punishing fire, which Christ calls “Gehenna” to communicate the moral nature of that place. It is similar to the valley of Hinnom but on a much more permenant and everlasting nature upon man’s entire being, not just his physical body. His soul and spirit are in danger of the displeasure of this One Who has this authority if he will not be saved. Good record keeping. But I don’t intend to chase links to past exchanges which themselves were probably refuted. It will most likely be going in circles with you.Anyway, those readers caring enough to follow your links to past comments can read this discussion from the beginning and decide where the more sound arguments have been presented.The rest of your comment seems a rehash of the idea that the four gospels have nothing to do with each other. And by isolating Christ’s teachings in disjunct and totally seperated and independent segments, you can present a case that Hell is Gehenna is the Valley of Hinnom which no longer is a danger to anyone.
You have to go through quite many acrobatics to divide and conqueror the Scripture to make your opinion come out like Christ’s teaching. The text used the word “authority.” So I read in it that God has the "authority." Of course authority includes ability there also.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : typos!