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Author Topic:   Evolution Logic
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 16 of 302 (314136)
05-21-2006 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by dorkfrommarn
05-21-2006 9:40 AM


Macro vs Micro
I hope that this might help you.
So far we only have one sample of living things to study, and that is the pool of living things, and the remains of things that have lived, here on earth. So anything we say has to be taken with the unstated provision that what we are talking about is just the stuff we have seen so far. Someday we may find other life and all the rules may need to be rewritten to account for that new evidence.
But for now, here is what we see.
So far every lifeform we look at has some very basic similarities, the chemicals are the same, the building methods are the same, there really doesn't seem to be very much difference at the most basic level between humans and slime mold.
Things like micro and macro, species or genus or order are simply arbitrary classifications that we assign for convenience and our human characteristic of putting stuff in boxes.
Let me try a couple analogies. Consider the light spectrum. We see light and color in certain ranges. We all have a pretty good idea of the macro differences, we know blue from green. But that only works when the differences are large, as we move from blue to green we pass through a whole series of micro colors, until we get to one where we're not sure if it is blue, or green.
They are all though just part of the visible light spectrum. There is no macro change between blue and green. Macro only comes in when the intervening micro color changes are removed. If they are present we see one continuous spread of all colors.
We can step back a little further and look at the electromagnetic spectrum. Again, we can find macro differences, gamma rays, xrays, ultraviolet, visible, infrared, microwave and radio, but these are arbitrary name assignments we use to label those boxes we are so fond of. There is no intrinsic difference between any of them, they are all electromagnetic waves. As we look closely at the boundaries of any two adjacent classes it gets harder and harder to tell which box we should put it in. Is it red, or infra red? Is it violet or ultra violet?
It's the same with living things. We can only apply the term macro when we ignore all of the micro steps inbetween. The differences are far more our perceptions and love of boxes than the properties of the things themselves.
Edited by jar, : to fix subtitle

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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Damouse
Member (Idle past 5017 days)
Posts: 215
From: Brookfield, Wisconsin
Joined: 12-18-2005


Message 17 of 302 (315491)
05-26-2006 8:06 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by dorkfrommarn
05-21-2006 9:40 AM


an irrational proof?
"So I am asking about a situation where changing from one species to another would benefit better than in-species yet still allow enough time for it to work" (-dorkfrommarn)
(soon to be known as) Birds, growing wings?

I believe in God, I just call it Nature

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nator
Member (Idle past 2281 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 18 of 302 (315494)
05-26-2006 8:18 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by jar
05-21-2006 11:56 AM


Re: Macro vs Micro
quote:
So far every lifeform we look at has some very basic similarities, the chemicals are the same, the building methods are the same, there really doesn't seem to be very much difference at the most basic level between humans and slime mold.
Mmmmm....slime mold....

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Damouse
Member (Idle past 5017 days)
Posts: 215
From: Brookfield, Wisconsin
Joined: 12-18-2005


Message 19 of 302 (317315)
06-03-2006 6:29 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by nator
05-26-2006 8:18 PM


Re: Macro vs Micro
well that blew the shnap outta the discussion....

-I believe in God, I just call it Nature
-One man with an imaginary friend is insane. a Million men with an imaginary friend is a religion.
-People must often be reminded that the bible did not arrive as a fax from heaven; it was written by men.
-Religion is the opiate of the masses

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lfen
Member (Idle past 4789 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 20 of 302 (317353)
06-03-2006 8:33 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by nator
05-26-2006 8:18 PM


Re: Macro vs Micro
Schraf,
What is that?
Looks like cheese to me. Is it really slime mould?
You ever play the game Rogue?
lfen

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2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 5963 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 21 of 302 (317502)
06-04-2006 5:31 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Chronos
05-21-2006 10:02 AM


Re: Need, want or curiosity
No, I gave the reasons why evolution occurs.
I believe you meant to say that you described the mechanical and chemical aspects that shape the process we call evolution as we currently understand it.
Why evolution occurs is a whole other animal subject to interpretation.

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nator
Member (Idle past 2281 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 22 of 302 (317526)
06-04-2006 7:54 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by lfen
06-03-2006 8:33 PM


Re: Macro vs Micro
quote:
What is that?
Looks like cheese to me. Is it really slime mould?
Yes, it's cheese, but no, it's not really slime mold on the outside.
It's a class of organism called "smear bacteria", most commonly B. Linens is used to ripen the class of cheeses called "washed rind".
Alsatian Munster, Pont l'Eveque, Epoisses, and Vacherin Mont d'Or are some of the more famous of that type.
Very funky smelling but not terribly strong tasting when cared for propery; they are slightly spicy, fruity and sometimes vegetal or meaty tasting.
quote:
You ever play the game Rogue?
Nope. What it it?
Edited by schrafinator, : fixing typo

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lfen
Member (Idle past 4789 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 23 of 302 (317650)
06-04-2006 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by nator
06-04-2006 7:54 AM


a brief aside on slime mould in the game Rogue
Rogue was an old ascii unix adventure game. Slime mould was the default food type and I think there were also killer slime moulds in the dungeon, it's sort of an old 'inside' joke. not important.
lfen

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kuresu
Member (Idle past 2625 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 24 of 302 (317658)
06-04-2006 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by 2ice_baked_taters
06-04-2006 5:31 AM


Re: Need, want or curiosity
Why evolution occurs is a whole other animal subject to interpretation.
I don't see why it is open to interpretation. Things don't have to have a reason. Besides, we know why evolution happens. Those "mechanical and chemical aspects that shape the process we call evolution" are the reasons for evolution occuring (if I remeber the post that you were replying to correctly).

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2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 5963 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 25 of 302 (317826)
06-05-2006 6:38 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by kuresu
06-04-2006 4:39 PM


Re: Need, want or curiosity
I simply think that the word reason is a poor choice of words.
I don't see why it is open to interpretation. Things don't have to have a reason. Besides, we know why evolution happens. Those "mechanical and chemical aspects that shape the process we call evolution" are the reasons for evolution occuring (if I remeber the post that you were replying to correctly).
A much better choice of words is perhaps not "the reason or reasons why"
but HOW evolution happens as we understand it.

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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3755 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 26 of 302 (317831)
06-05-2006 7:14 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by lfen
06-04-2006 3:51 PM


Re: a brief aside on slime mould in the game Rogue
[Off-topic]
Wasn't rogue the fore-runner of hack and then nethack?
Slime-molds became the default food type of the wizard in hack as I remember.
[/off-topic]

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Damouse
Member (Idle past 5017 days)
Posts: 215
From: Brookfield, Wisconsin
Joined: 12-18-2005


Message 27 of 302 (318005)
06-05-2006 4:13 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by 2ice_baked_taters
06-05-2006 6:38 AM


Re: Need, want or curiosity
A much better choice of words is perhaps not "the reason or reasons why"
but HOW evolution happens as we understand it.
I've got that sinking feeling that comes when i've misinterpereted something. If you're asking do we know the reasons why evolution works, then the answer is random genetic mutations, leading into rare beneficial mutations which are almost always passed on because of the beneficial mutations tendency to give the animal that harbors it an egde.

-I believe in God, I just call it Nature
-One man with an imaginary friend is insane. a Million men with an imaginary friend is a religion.
-People must often be reminded that the bible did not arrive as a fax from heaven; it was written by men.
-Religion is the opiate of the masses

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 Message 25 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 06-05-2006 6:38 AM 2ice_baked_taters has not replied

Someone who cares
Member (Idle past 5862 days)
Posts: 192
Joined: 06-06-2006


Message 28 of 302 (318452)
06-06-2006 9:52 PM


"For the record, scientists have documented quite a few (at least several hundred) instances of speciation/macroevolution occuring."
Really? Could you give me some for macroevolution?

"If you’re living like there is no God you’d better be right!" - Unknown

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1517 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 29 of 302 (318459)
06-06-2006 9:59 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Someone who cares
06-06-2006 9:52 PM


Welcome to the fray.
What would you consider macroevolution to involve?
I'm not asking to be cute but to see what kind of evidence you are looking for.

Join the effort to unravel {AIDSHIV} with Team EvC! (click)

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
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Someone who cares
Member (Idle past 5862 days)
Posts: 192
Joined: 06-06-2006


Message 30 of 302 (318464)
06-06-2006 10:06 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by RAZD
06-06-2006 9:59 PM


Well, macroevolution is when one kind of an organism supposedly evolves into another one. So, I would like if you could prove this, either by fossils, genetics, observation, or by something else to the sort. Like if you saw macroevolution in action. Or if you found that genetics would permit it. Or if you found a REAL fossil of a scale evolving into a feather. Or something else to the sort.

"If you’re living like there is no God you’d better be right!" - Unknown

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