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Author
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Topic: What Does the Second Coming Entail?
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Legend
Member (Idle past 5027 days) Posts: 1226 From: Wales, UK Joined: 05-07-2004
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Message 5 of 238 (315665)
05-27-2006 8:17 PM
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Reply to: Message 1 by ok boy
05-27-2006 10:50 AM
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the whys whens and hows
Hello ok boy and welcome
quote:
What do people think step 5 might be like and how it might work?
if you read Matthew 25:31-46 it gives a good description of how it might work.
quote:
Why didn't God skip steps 1-4 and go straight to 5 in the first place?
You see, God has a bit of a quirk: he is bound by his own rules. And rule #1 says that God cannot forgive and move on, like you and I can, oh no, God has to see some blood on the ground before he'll even look us in the eye again. And given the magnitude of the transgression made by our distant ancestors, this blood cannot be just anyone's - it has to be pure, sinless blood that will truely please God. ...enter Jesus. As we're all worthless sinners (as the apostle Paul keeps reminding us every other sentence), God had to made himself human and use his own blood to satisfy his rule. Now that God's rule has been satisfied, by Him, we can look Him in the eye again and He's ready to judge us when the time comes. ofcourse, it begs the question "what happens if we go and defy God again after that? does the whole scenario have to be replayed?" But that's probably another topic for another thread.
"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1 by ok boy, posted 05-27-2006 10:50 AM | | ok boy has not replied |
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Legend
Member (Idle past 5027 days) Posts: 1226 From: Wales, UK Joined: 05-07-2004
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Message 9 of 238 (315726)
05-28-2006 5:56 AM
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Reply to: Message 6 by iano
05-27-2006 8:21 PM
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Re: Heavens above!
iano writes:
But God suffers everytime they act on this choice. God loves everyone immensely and to watch them destroy themselves in the myriad of ways they do causes him anguish. But there was no other way. Freely given love is what he wants us to have for him - for he knows just how much joy that will bring us - far more joy than getting our end away with Mr's O'Brien up in number 43 when her husband is at work. Like any one who loves another - you love it when they are enjoying themselves - it gives YOU pleasure when a beloved is happy. (emphasis is mine)
Legend writes: You see, God has a bit of a quirk: he is bound by his own rules. And rule #1 says that God cannot forgive and move on, like you and I can, oh no, God has to see some blood on the ground before he'll even look us in the eye again. And given the magnitude of the transgression made by our distant ancestors, this blood cannot be just anyone's - it has to be pure, sinless blood that will truely please God. ...enter Jesus. As we're all worthless sinners (as the apostle Paul keeps reminding us every other sentence), God had to made himself human and use his own blood to satisfy his rule. see, we both just said the same thing there , but you used fluffy, feel-good words like 'love', 'joy' and 'happy' to make it sound like a good thing. You even got Mrs O'Brien in there for that 'it-could-be-you' sense of familiarity. I learn my lesson in presentational writing and bow in humility before you - I'm not worthy, I'm not worthy!
"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 6 by iano, posted 05-27-2006 8:21 PM | | iano has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 10 by iano, posted 05-28-2006 8:23 PM | | Legend has replied |
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Legend
Member (Idle past 5027 days) Posts: 1226 From: Wales, UK Joined: 05-07-2004
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Re: the whys whens and hows
Legend writes: he is bound by his own rules. And rule #1 says that God cannot forgive and move on, like you and I can, oh no, God has to see some blood on the ground before he'll even look us in the eye again.
fallacycop writes: I thought god was supposed to be omnipotent. Either way, this god you are describing sounds prety mean to me yup... he sure does!
Legend writes: And given the magnitude of the transgression made by our distant ancestors, this blood cannot be just anyone's - it has to be pure, sinless blood that will truely please God.
fallacycop writes: I think the transgression was kind of minor. After all, the transgressors had no knowlege of good and evil at the time of transgression (they were like children) and cannot be fairly blamed by what they did you would have thought so, wouldn't you? but God got realy miffed off with this and ensured (according to apostle Paul) that not only Adam & Eve but every single one of us pays for this transgression. listen, I'm just giving you the non-sanitized mainstream Christian story. If you want the fluffy, feel-good version talk to people like iano who might be able to explain to you how this God, despite seeming like a pedantic, cruel and limited deity, is really the omnipotent creator of everything who loves you very much (but will still see that you burn in hell if you don't believe in him).
"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 12 by fallacycop, posted 05-29-2006 12:07 AM | | fallacycop has not replied |
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Legend
Member (Idle past 5027 days) Posts: 1226 From: Wales, UK Joined: 05-07-2004
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Message 14 of 238 (315877)
05-29-2006 6:26 AM
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Reply to: Message 10 by iano
05-28-2006 8:23 PM
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My hangups
iano writes: You got hang ups about good things Legend? no, but I do get hang ups about bad things being presented as good things, for instance, * 5 year old ex-company cars with 100K miles on them, on sale for 4 grand.....presented as a 'bargain' * upgrades to software that does only half the things you want it to do , badly.....presented as 'essential'. * a God who won't forgive and move on without making someone suffer......presented as 'loving' and 'caring'. * a God who cannot forgive and move on without making someone suffer......presented as 'omnipotent' and 'creator of all'. I could go on forever here nut I hope you get the drift by now.
"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 10 by iano, posted 05-28-2006 8:23 PM | | iano has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 15 by iano, posted 05-29-2006 9:27 AM | | Legend has replied | | | Message 89 by Larni, posted 06-07-2006 7:16 AM | | Legend has replied |
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Legend
Member (Idle past 5027 days) Posts: 1226 From: Wales, UK Joined: 05-07-2004
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Message 17 of 238 (315926)
05-29-2006 10:16 AM
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Reply to: Message 15 by iano
05-29-2006 9:27 AM
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where do I find the definition for Justice in the Christial dictionary ?
iano writes: You mean justice is a bad thing? You don't think its just that we be punished for the wrong things we do? so... when Paul says (Rom 5:12-15) that death has entered the world through Adam's transgression and everyone dies as a result of sin even if they hadn't sinned after Adam's transgression does that seem just to you ?? can you enumerate the wrong things that a two-year old child has done before dying from leukemia ? is it just that people suffer and die because of something that their distant ancestors did ? is it just that you pay the price for something that I did wrong ?
iano writes: If he was only justness and wrath then there would be no possibility of forgiveness. ?? that's a non-sequitur. I'm all justness and wrath (often, believe me) yet I can forgive people who accept their mistake and apologise. I also don't take it out on their children and grandchildren. somehow, your God is unable to do that.
iano writes: He can forgive and not make a person suffer at all well..then why doesn't he ??
iano writes: God cannot simply magic-wand forgive. He must take the financial hit. He must pay for your offence. Thats just the way it is you're contradicting yourself ian. Can God simply forgive and move on or can't he ? If he's paid the price then why do we still have to ? If he's taken the hit, as you say, then the issue is closed, we're forgiven, let's move on, right? There's no need for the whole 'believe in Jesus or else..' kerfufle. There's no need for the 'we're all sinners because Adam sinned' nonsense. You seem to be unable to explain this to yourself, let alone to me.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 15 by iano, posted 05-29-2006 9:27 AM | | iano has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 22 by iano, posted 05-29-2006 11:39 AM | | Legend has replied | | | Message 23 by iano, posted 05-29-2006 12:35 PM | | Legend has not replied |
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Legend
Member (Idle past 5027 days) Posts: 1226 From: Wales, UK Joined: 05-07-2004
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Message 24 of 238 (316037)
05-29-2006 3:30 PM
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Reply to: Message 22 by iano
05-29-2006 11:39 AM
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Re: where do I find the definition for Justice in the Christial dictionary ?
iano writes: The question is, is that fair?
precisely. Also, is it just ?
iano writes: Adam was given dominion over everything before he sinned. He was given the status of head of state so to speak. When he went down his state went down with him - us included. we weren't even around at the time, we didn't vote for him, we didn't elect him. is it fair that we have to pay for his actions, is it just ?
iano writes: A child born with HIV is born so for no reason other than her parentage. It is not a question of fairness or justness it is a result of the action of its parents or its parents parents. hold on.. you just said: iano writes: The question is, is that fair?
you're now saying that it's nothing to with fairness or justness?! God has full control over what happens to us, has he not?. He chooses to allow terrible things to happen to innocent people to satisfy his own rule that sins of parents are paid by the children too. I know we're agreeing so far because you've said:
iano writes: The child died because it was a sinner and had a sinners mortal body.
So there's nothing to dispute up to this point. The question -like you said- is: is it fair ? is it just ?
iano writes: God gave it to a being who was made free-willed and it was Adam who lost it. God has nothing to do with it other than giving him the choice
that's fine. Why do we have to pay for Adam's wrong choice ? is it fair ? is it just ? I've asked you if it's just that people suffer and die because of something that their distant ancestors did . You said:
iano writes: They suffer because of the diseased creation that arose due to Adams fallen dominion. Famine, earthquake etc. They die because of a disease caught from their ancestor and they sin because if the disease. I take it that's a NO then ?!
iano writes: To counter that we have God offering to cure us from our addiction
What addiction are you on about?! There is no addiction! Adam & Eve broke one rule. That's it! God just can't forgive and move on. Even if there was an addiction God is the one who gave it us, he created us, remember ? That's what gets me with Christians, when in a tight corner they act as if God is a distant observer who watches someone else's play unfold without the power to do anything. When good things happen, it's God who made it happen. When terrible things happen, well it's nothing to do with God, it's Adam's / devil's / sin's / our fault, God couldn't do anything, he doesn't interfere you see. What a cop out, ian! I asked you if it's just that you pay the price for something that I did wrong ? You said:
iano writes: Its about dominion. When a head of a dominion chooses a direction which goes counter to another, bigger power then it is the dominion which suffers I'm not head of a dominion, Adam wasn't head of a dominion, but -most importantly- God is above any dominion, God makes the rules. So it's not about dominion, like you said
iano writes: The question is, is that fair? well, is it fair? is it just?
iano writes: We choose to sin Legend - make no mistake about it.
did the two-year old dying from leukemia choose to sin ?!
iano writes: I knock over you lamp and you say "I forgive you" But I say I don't want your forgiveness, it wasn't me and that I didn't do anything in order to need forgiveness. we've been though this before: it takes two to tango but only one to forgive. Forgiveness is up to the offended party ONLY.
Merriam-Webster online writes:
1 a : to give up resentment of or claim to requital for b : to grant relief from payment of
2 : to cease to feel resentment against (an offender) : PARDON
note the above definition doesn't mention acceptance or rejection of forgiveness, nor does it impose conditions. If you forgive, you forgive. Period. most of us are capable of forgiving, your God isn't.
"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 22 by iano, posted 05-29-2006 11:39 AM | | iano has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 25 by CK, posted 05-29-2006 4:12 PM | | Legend has not replied |
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Legend
Member (Idle past 5027 days) Posts: 1226 From: Wales, UK Joined: 05-07-2004
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Message 27 of 238 (316965)
06-02-2006 8:04 AM
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Reply to: Message 22 by iano
05-29-2006 11:39 AM
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forgiveness ?
iano writes: Do you need forgiveness Legend? the kind of 'forgiveness' that your God is offering I have no need or desire for. Reminds me of a film I saw once, where this chap lost the colombian druglord's money. The druglord said: 'allright I forgive you, I just want you to stuff this bag full of cocaine up your arse and fly to New York for me, will you, that's a good boy' that's kind of how your God works, isn't it? only instead of stuffing a bag of coke up one's arse, one has to believe that Jesus died on the cross to take their sins away. Forgiveness with a catch!
"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 22 by iano, posted 05-29-2006 11:39 AM | | iano has not replied |
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Legend
Member (Idle past 5027 days) Posts: 1226 From: Wales, UK Joined: 05-07-2004
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Message 39 of 238 (317162)
06-03-2006 4:41 AM
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Reply to: Message 36 by iano
06-02-2006 7:00 PM
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still makes no sense.
iano writes: Bob says "Welcome to the nightclub! Boy, am I glad you here for you will really like this! Now, I gotta go welcome some other guests so this is what I recommend you do. But if you don't fancy what I recommend then by all means ignore my advice. As the owner who knows this place inside out and as one who has a pretty good idea of the lay of the land I can point you to all the best bits. But don't worry - if you decide to do it your way and have too much beer and get sick on my carpet I won't kick you out of the club. Ever. For I was the one who invited you in. You simply took up the invite. If that creates problems for me then that is my problem. Okay you'll have a sick stomach but hey I didn't pour that beer down it did I? Let me look afer the sick on the carpet though will ya?. you forgot the part where Bob says: "you've been sick on my carpet but I forgive you as long as you, your children and your children's children accept my cousin Dave as their personal Lord and Saviour."
"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 36 by iano, posted 06-02-2006 7:00 PM | | iano has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 41 by iano, posted 06-03-2006 10:03 AM | | Legend has replied |
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Legend
Member (Idle past 5027 days) Posts: 1226 From: Wales, UK Joined: 05-07-2004
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Message 42 of 238 (317189)
06-03-2006 11:42 AM
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Reply to: Message 41 by iano
06-03-2006 10:03 AM
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Re: still makes no sense.
iano writes: Turning away, for you know that if you can't pay you have no right of entry, you hear Bob call you back and open the till and pay your for your entry. You can refuse his generous offer. Or accept it. so you're saying I can walk in the club any time I like, right ? No catches ?
iano writes: Getting sick on his carpet later doesn't mean you'll be chucked out.....Legally, the price of admission has been paid so you have as much right to be there as anyone else. now I'm really confused! If the price has been paid and I have the right to be there then where does Jesus fit in ? Why is Paul / John banging on about Jesus as the 'Paschal lamb' ? Why is Paul saying that ONLY through faith in Jesus can one be justified ? if the price has been paid and we have the right to be in the club then there's no need to believe that Jesus died for our sins and all that, right ? You've either changed your views radically in the last few hours or your analogy is fundamentally flawed. Edited by Legend, : edited for spelling / grammar.
"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 41 by iano, posted 06-03-2006 10:03 AM | | iano has replied |
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Legend
Member (Idle past 5027 days) Posts: 1226 From: Wales, UK Joined: 05-07-2004
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Message 48 of 238 (317228)
06-03-2006 2:29 PM
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Reply to: Message 47 by iano
06-03-2006 1:23 PM
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Re: still makes no sense.
iano writes: Unless accepting Bobs offer constitutes a catch for you then no, there are no catches.
I'm accepting his offer. Can I come in now?
iano writes: Jesus gives the currency validity. If the owner paid with Monopoly money then that is not true payment. what's that got to do with me? if the owner paid and gave me the right to come in the club, why should I care if it's true payment or not. If he chooses to cheat himself and pay with fake money, that's his problem. As far as I'm concerned he said he paid and gave me the right to get in. The rest is his concern not mine.
iano writes: The currency in this nightclub must be legal tender. It must be acceptable to the nightclubs auditors (God as justice) as a means of paying for our entry. Again, the owner pays so it's his responsibility to make sure he uses legal tender, not mine. If the auditors find that he cheated himself for me to get in the club, why is it my fault ?!
iano writes: The right for you to enter has been paid for but if the right isn't exercised then the money just sits there waiting in a vacuum. ok.....so... ??
iano writes: It has unrealised potential.
maybe he should invest it in real estate or something.
iano writes: They are his funds and if he wants to reassign them for some other use at any time then that is his right. fine , it's just that he said that he's paid the price and I have the right to come in, no catches, remember ? are you now saying that this isn't quite true ?! let's recap: * Bob wants me to come to his club and he's paid the price. * Bob says I have the right to be in his club. * Bob says I can come in the club anytime I like, no catches. so, can I come in Bob's club or can't I ?!
"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 47 by iano, posted 06-03-2006 1:23 PM | | iano has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 49 by iano, posted 06-03-2006 2:36 PM | | Legend has replied |
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Legend
Member (Idle past 5027 days) Posts: 1226 From: Wales, UK Joined: 05-07-2004
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Message 51 of 238 (317248)
06-03-2006 3:28 PM
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Reply to: Message 49 by iano
06-03-2006 2:36 PM
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Re: Our first EvC conversion?
iano writes: (Just out of curiousity but if you don't want to say thats fine. What did you say to him in your accepting of his offer?) I said: "I don't, for a minute, believe that the loving, caring creator of everything would have to kill his immortal son to appease himself and stop himself from letting me rot in hell, but I try to do good and help those around me whenever I can. Can I come in ? " He said: "You wouldn't like Hell, not since St Paul stopped doing his faith-healing act to the demons annual jamboree and the Popes started arguing between them about the meaning of filioque. Here in Heaven, however, we have non-stop live football on telly and an unending supply of Haagen-Das (Carl Sagan just loves cookie-dough flavour). We'll be waiting for you."
"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 49 by iano, posted 06-03-2006 2:36 PM | | iano has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 53 by iano, posted 06-03-2006 4:26 PM | | Legend has replied |
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Legend
Member (Idle past 5027 days) Posts: 1226 From: Wales, UK Joined: 05-07-2004
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Message 52 of 238 (317253)
06-03-2006 3:52 PM
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Reply to: Message 50 by lfen
06-03-2006 3:23 PM
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believe and be happy.
Ifen writes: This is the sales pitch of Paul and all those who followed him. If you don't believe in the nightclub then it doesn't exist. All you have to do is believe the story and you can be excited and happy about this great night club you will go to one day. It's a pyramid scheme in a way in that you are encouraged to get others to believe in this nightclub. spot on, Ifen. that's why iano gets so excited at the possibility of a conversion whilst he fails to explain to me (and, I suspect, to himself too) how the whole thing works in any meaningful way. he's bought in the dream, he just can't let go now or he'll have to go back into living a 'normal' life again where he'll be Average Joe, like the rest of us, and not a millionaire-heir like you very poignantly said.
"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 50 by lfen, posted 06-03-2006 3:23 PM | | lfen has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 68 by Phat, posted 06-04-2006 12:06 PM | | Legend has not replied |
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Legend
Member (Idle past 5027 days) Posts: 1226 From: Wales, UK Joined: 05-07-2004
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Message 54 of 238 (317284)
06-03-2006 5:25 PM
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Reply to: Message 53 by iano
06-03-2006 4:26 PM
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Re: Our first EvC conversion?
quote:
but I try to do good and help those around me whenever I can. Can I come in ?
iano writes: In our little analogy this would see you standing in the queue poking around in your wallet for the price of admission. Pay up yourself or accept his currency. Dems d'options
hold on, all along you've been saying that he's paid the price for me to come in. Well, has he or hasn't he ? your little analogy seems to be twisting and changing all the time. what do you mean accepting his 'currency' ?? that doesn't even make sense. It's his club, he's paying, he's receiving, there's nothing for me to accept or reject with regard to the currency, what he chooses to pay himself with (?) is his problem not mine. Once again, if he's paid the price and invited me in, what's stopping me from coming in? it's a simple question ian, why can't you give a simple answer ? Edited by Legend, : edited for spelling
"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 53 by iano, posted 06-03-2006 4:26 PM | | iano has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 55 by iano, posted 06-03-2006 6:03 PM | | Legend has replied |
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Legend
Member (Idle past 5027 days) Posts: 1226 From: Wales, UK Joined: 05-07-2004
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Message 56 of 238 (317317)
06-03-2006 6:41 PM
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Reply to: Message 55 by iano
06-03-2006 6:03 PM
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Re: Our first EvC conversion?
iano writes: You only have to accept his invite. "Yes I want to come in" Do you accept his invite? we're going round in circles, I've answered this before, yes I accept. you've done more ducking & diving than a duck attempting to break the world's free-diving record. I hate quoting myself but here goes :
Legend writes: let's recap: * Bob wants me to come to his club and he's paid the price. * Bob says I have the right to be in his club. * Bob says I can come in the club anytime I like, no catches. so, can I come in Bob's club or can't I ?! well, what is it?
"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 55 by iano, posted 06-03-2006 6:03 PM | | iano has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 58 by iano, posted 06-03-2006 7:26 PM | | Legend has replied |
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Legend
Member (Idle past 5027 days) Posts: 1226 From: Wales, UK Joined: 05-07-2004
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Message 57 of 238 (317322)
06-03-2006 6:51 PM
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analogies
Wounded King writes: Comparing God to a weird nightclub owner makes baby Jesus cry. Legend writes: Reminds me of a film I saw once, where this chap lost the colombian druglord's money. The druglord said: 'allright I forgive you, I just want you to stuff this bag full of cocaine up your arse and fly to New York for me, will you, that's a good boy' that's kind of how your God works, isn't it? baby Jesus must be going through his third box of Kleenex by now.
"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."
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