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Author Topic:   What Does the Second Coming Entail?
ok boy
Member (Idle past 3027 days)
Posts: 12
Joined: 05-22-2006


Message 1 of 238 (315593)
05-27-2006 10:50 AM


hi all - long-time lurker, first-time caller.

I was prompted to post this by message 18 by iano in the 'Gods and Demons' thread which skirts some of the issues I would like this thread to cover.

Some of the posts i've read on this board seem to put forward a biblical view of the history of the world that goes something like this:

1. God creates the world

2. Man is created, and man and God have a much closer, more direct relationship than today. Everything is 'perfect' (or possibly 'very good').

3. Man exercises free will and turns away from God. things go downhill from here.

4. Jesus arrives and things kind of get better, but generally the world is still going downhill.

5. At some point in the future Jesus / God will return and everything will be 'perfect' / 'very good' again.

I know not everyone reads it this way, and it's more than possible that I've misunderstood people's positions from the get-go, in which case I apologise.

Assuming this gross over-simplification is not a complete misrepresentation of a certain view of the bible, my questions would be:

1. What do people think step 5 might be like and how it might work?

2. Why didn't God skip steps 1-4 and go straight to 5 in the first place?

I've been thinking about this for a while, and haven't been able to come up with a satisfactory answer myself.

If accepted, I'm happy for this thread to go in any of the forums. Oh, and I couldn't think up a good title either, so any suggestions are more than welcome.

thanks


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AdminPD
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Message 2 of 238 (315594)
05-27-2006 10:52 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4662
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 3 of 238 (315597)
05-27-2006 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by ok boy
05-27-2006 10:50 AM


Why is God the way God is?
2. Why didn't God skip steps 1-4 and go straight to 5 in the first place?

Hi MrNewbie. Welcome much.

Why are they always out of strawberry and I have to make do with chocolate? ;)

Well, what's the point in stopping 1-4 and letting evil win? It's all to do with good and evil. If God has plans, then if he is God, is he some coward who stops any of his plans when evil comes knocking? No - infact he dies on a cross and goes through hell, rather than do that.

So what does that tell you about God? What can you infer?

Try some deductions. Read about God's characteristics in the NT.

If you really want a good answer, then you'll find out why God's word is important an unbreakable. He says we build our foundation on a rock - not jelly or sand.

It is an illusion that evil is the greater. Evil is a joke. This can be seen in how authors of fantasy fiction books, have so accurately represented evil. Read Harry Potter, or the chronicles of Narnia, for examples of good and evil.

Fantasy it is, the stories, but ironically, very similar to the truth. Look at God as your Dumbledore- type character, and your satan as Voldemort. How do they strike you personality wise?

Now you might think, oh mike you big babay, read something real, like Darwin's origins.

But I'd die of boredom! :)

Edited by mike the wiz, : I have now called God a coward rather than a soward


" 'My dear Watson,' said he, 'I cannot agree with those who rank modesty among the virtues. To the logician all things should be seen exactly as they are, and to underestimate oneself is as much a departure from truth as to exaggerate one's own powers. " - Sherlock Holmes,(The Greek Interpreter)

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Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5867
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 4 of 238 (315603)
05-27-2006 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by ok boy
05-27-2006 10:50 AM


The purpose of purpose
Assuming this gross over-simplification is not a complete misrepresentation of a certain view of the bible, my questions would be:

1. What do people think step 5 might be like and how it might work?

2. Why didn't God skip steps 1-4 and go straight to 5 in the first place?

I've been thinking about this for a while, and haven't been able to come up with a satisfactory answer myself.

Yes, I would agree that your model is over-simplified, but if we were to give the briefest synopsis available, perhaps this would suffice.

Your question is one that has been agonized and toiled over by a number of apologists and philosophers alike for some time. It is something that I have considered. Why all this inner-dialogue when there is one single purpose? Why not forgo all these steps when we could just circumvent them? Why all this passing of time that ultimately mean nothing in the grand scheme?

The only logical answer I have surmised can possibly best summarized in the adage, "It's not the destination that matters, but the journey." I think of time as it would relate to God who by neccessity would live outside the time domain. Time is inconsequential to God, but means so very much to the material world. What is matter apart from time? If time and space are conjoined, what should happen to matter without space-time? This triune nature of time, space, and matter only make sense relationally. They don't exist without each other.

As far as good and evil, right and wrong, righteous and wicked, I have pondered this too. Why does evil even exist? What purpose could it possibly serve? And I then considered what the two diametrically opposed conditions were. I considered what evil would be without the contrast of good. Would evil even be evil without their being a contrasting view in order to understand its very nature? Would good exist by itself without the contrast of evil? I don't think they would. They would lose all meaning without their balance. They make no sense and have no meaning if they are not relationally present. What is yin without yang? Does light exist if there is no darkness? Does darkness exist if there is no light?

So my only conclusion is that contrasting views are the only way to make any kind of distinguishing patterns in all of life. We don't like bad so that it will compel us towards what is good and just. We generally recognize that light is better than darkness. We generally understand, principally, that righteousness is better than wickedness. But if the contrasting view was not present, all would be meaningless.

So why did God go through all of this dialogue? The answer may be so simplistic that we miss its intent entirely. Perhaps it all has to do with His glory. The allowance of bad helps us gauge what is good. This, I believe, is why God does what He does and allows what He allows. Perhaps my explanation is too metaphysical, perhaps it makes perfect sense. Other than the reasons I listed, I can think of no other reason why this rich tapestry in nature exists.

But why give us the option, right? Why give us the option of choosing bad or good? Doesn't that make Him a culprit and an abettor in our own condemnation? And then I thought of the purpose. What is love without the ability to reject it? Could He have made us mindless automotns that worship Him in vain? Sure, why not? But is that love? How could it be? Can we program a robot to 'love' us? We could give it mindless functions to masquerade as love, but that isn't really love, now is it? If I didn't have the ability to choose whether or not I would love my wife, then it wouldn't really be love at all.

For all of these reasons, is the only thing that I can surmise concerning God and concerning our purpose here. If anyone has anything beyond this I would love to hear about it.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Legend
Member (Idle past 3343 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 5 of 238 (315665)
05-27-2006 8:17 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by ok boy
05-27-2006 10:50 AM


the whys whens and hows
Hello ok boy and welcome

quote:
What do people think step 5 might be like and how it might work?

if you read Matthew 25:31-46 it gives a good description of how it might work.

quote:
Why didn't God skip steps 1-4 and go straight to 5 in the first place?

You see, God has a bit of a quirk: he is bound by his own rules. And rule #1 says that God cannot forgive and move on, like you and I can, oh no, God has to see some blood on the ground before he'll even look us in the eye again.

And given the magnitude of the transgression made by our distant ancestors, this blood cannot be just anyone's - it has to be pure, sinless blood that will truely please God.

...enter Jesus. As we're all worthless sinners (as the apostle Paul keeps reminding us every other sentence), God had to made himself human and use his own blood to satisfy his rule.

Now that God's rule has been satisfied, by Him, we can look Him in the eye again and He's ready to judge us when the time comes.

ofcourse, it begs the question "what happens if we go and defy God again after that? does the whole scenario have to be replayed?"

But that's probably another topic for another thread.


"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by fallacycop, posted 05-29-2006 12:07 AM Legend has responded
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iano
Member (Idle past 278 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 6 of 238 (315667)
05-27-2006 8:21 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by ok boy
05-27-2006 10:50 AM


Heavens above!
1. What do people think step 5 might be like and how it might work?

Nemisis J has expanded well on that which I wrote to you regarding your second question in the 'God and Demons' thread. Evil fulfills various logical purposes not least of which is enabling true love freely given.

I suspect that that is the 'prize' for God that makes all this worthwhile. People often point the finger at God and 'blame' him for what goes wrong and all our suffering. Not realising that God suffers greatly too. Far worse than us in fact. In a "sex education" thread running here some folk expressed their views on sex. And some hold to the view that any kind of sex with anybody of any sex at anytime - is fine by them. In exercising those choices they don't see it as suffering. They see it (or teach themselves to see it) as great fun. And if they catch some disease well hey! - "in most instances a couple of jabs down at the clinic will likely sort it out..."

But God suffers everytime they act on this choice. God loves everyone immensely and to watch them destroy themselves in the myriad of ways they do causes him anguish. But there was no other way. Freely given love is what he wants us to have for him - for he knows just how much joy that will bring us - far more joy than getting our end away with Mr's O'Brien up in number 43 when her husband is at work. Like any one who loves another - you love it when they are enjoying themselves - it gives YOU pleasure when a beloved is happy.

What will heaven be like? Well God says that "no eye has seen and no mind has conceived the wonderful things that God has prepared in advance (because he knows who they will be naturally) for those who love him" This should whet our appetite. But for now we can suppose quite a ways - even if we don't know him now and the joy that that brings to a person who knows him now.

In heaven there will be no evil anymore. It can serve no purpose. By not rejecting his gospel (or mechanism by which he saves us) we will have in effect 'chosen' to freely love him whilst alive. Once that situation is settled then there is no use for evil anymore (once the temporal plan is done and dusted). We have been moved irrevocibly back to within the boundaries he sets for us - like Adam, but having made the 'right' 'choice'. There is no need to re-enact the scene again. Time will have served its purpose.

What will heaven be like? I suspect it will have much of what earth has in terms of us expressing the gifts that God gives each one of us. And that there will be work to do which will involve expressing those gifts. But with no fall it will never get boring - it will contain all the excitement on might feel when one embarks on a new job full of potential and purpose. All the work will be focused at expressing love - as some work is done now. Love for each other and love for God.

Start imagining a world as now but begin to subtract that which you know to be evil from it - bit by bit. The more you subtract the better it gets. But however good your imagination (aided perhaps by a spreadsheet so as to track the effects of evil being removed across the matrix of society)...

"No eye has seen and no mind has conceived, the wonderful things that God has prepared in advance for those who (free-willingly) love him"

One can picture the same thing (in inverted fashion) for Hell


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Legend, posted 05-28-2006 5:56 AM iano has responded

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 5587
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005


Message 7 of 238 (315671)
05-27-2006 8:46 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by ok boy
05-27-2006 10:50 AM


5. At some point in the future Jesus / God will return and everything will be 'perfect' / 'very good' again.

ok boy asks "What do people think step 5 might be like and how it might work?"

I think step 5 will never happen. It's all a theological mistake, based on taking metaphors and treating them as if predictions of the future.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by ok boy, posted 05-27-2006 10:50 AM ok boy has not yet responded

  
igor_the_hero
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 238 (315673)
05-27-2006 8:53 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by ok boy
05-27-2006 10:50 AM


Check It Out
5. At some point in the future Jesus / God will return and everything will be 'perfect' / 'very good' again.

Actually Jesus will come back and take the people who believe in him. Then for a while it will be very bad for the people left. Kind of God's way to try to get us to believe in him. He tried the passive way and it didn't get that many. Now he is going full out to get us. After that time he will come back again and things will be good.


This message is a reply to:
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Legend
Member (Idle past 3343 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 9 of 238 (315726)
05-28-2006 5:56 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by iano
05-27-2006 8:21 PM


Re: Heavens above!
iano writes:


But God suffers everytime they act on this choice. God loves everyone immensely and to watch them destroy themselves in the myriad of ways they do causes him anguish. But there was no other way. Freely given love is what he wants us to have for him - for he knows just how much joy that will bring us - far more joy than getting our end away with Mr's O'Brien up in number 43 when her husband is at work. Like any one who loves another - you love it when they are enjoying themselves - it gives YOU pleasure when a beloved is happy.

(emphasis is mine)

Legend writes:

You see, God has a bit of a quirk: he is bound by his own rules. And rule #1 says that God cannot forgive and move on, like you and I can, oh no, God has to see some blood on the ground before he'll even look us in the eye again.
And given the magnitude of the transgression made by our distant ancestors, this blood cannot be just anyone's - it has to be pure, sinless blood that will truely please God.
...enter Jesus. As we're all worthless sinners (as the apostle Paul keeps reminding us every other sentence), God had to made himself human and use his own blood to satisfy his rule.

see, we both just said the same thing there , but you used fluffy, feel-good words like 'love', 'joy' and 'happy' to make it sound like a good thing. You even got Mrs O'Brien in there for that 'it-could-be-you' sense of familiarity.

I learn my lesson in presentational writing and bow in humility before you - I'm not worthy, I'm not worthy!


"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by iano, posted 05-27-2006 8:21 PM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by iano, posted 05-28-2006 8:23 PM Legend has responded

  
iano
Member (Idle past 278 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 10 of 238 (315834)
05-28-2006 8:23 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Legend
05-28-2006 5:56 AM


Re: Heavens above!
see, we both just said the same thing there , but you used fluffy, feel-good words like 'love', 'joy' and 'happy' to make it sound like a good thing. You even got Mrs O'Brien in there for that 'it-could-be-you' sense of familiarity.

Which more or less means that we didn't say the same thing. I'm not sure whether to be relieved or anguished. You got hang ups about good things Legend?

I learn my lesson in presentational writing and bow in humility before you - I'm not worthy, I'm not worthy!

Your a sinner - just like me. And neither of us are worthy of him. The difference is that I accept that fact.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Legend, posted 05-28-2006 5:56 AM Legend has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Legend, posted 05-29-2006 6:26 AM iano has responded

  
mick
Member (Idle past 3323 days)
Posts: 913
Joined: 02-17-2005


Message 11 of 238 (315853)
05-28-2006 11:47 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Hyroglyphx
05-27-2006 12:00 PM


Re: The purpose of purpose
nemesis writes:

What is love without the ability to reject it?

When you say that, the answer seems quite obvious. I immediatey imagine the love that a newborn baby receives from its mother. It's not that hard to conceptualize! But you go on to say that we should really be thinking about robots!?!

nemesis writes:

Could He have made us mindless automotns that worship Him in vain? Sure, why not? But is that love? How could it be? Can we program a robot to 'love' us?

What are you talking about? As a non-religious person I find all of this waffle about robots less than illuminating. Love without the ability to reject it is a perfectly normal part of nature.

Mick


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Hyroglyphx, posted 05-27-2006 12:00 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

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fallacycop
Member (Idle past 3857 days)
Posts: 692
From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil
Joined: 02-18-2006


Message 12 of 238 (315855)
05-29-2006 12:07 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Legend
05-27-2006 8:17 PM


Re: the whys whens and hows
Legend writes:

he is bound by his own rules. And rule #1 says that God cannot forgive and move on, like you and I can, oh no, God has to see some blood on the ground before he'll even look us in the eye again.

I thought god was supposed to be omnipotent. Either way, this god you are describing sounds prety mean to me

Legend writes:

And given the magnitude of the transgression made by our distant ancestors, this blood cannot be just anyone's - it has to be pure, sinless blood that will truely please God.

I think the transgression was kind of minor. After all, the transgressors had no knowlege of good and evil at the time of transgression (they were like children) and cannot be fairly blamed by what they did

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Legend, posted 05-27-2006 8:17 PM Legend has responded

Replies to this message:
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Legend
Member (Idle past 3343 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 13 of 238 (315870)
05-29-2006 5:36 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by fallacycop
05-29-2006 12:07 AM


Re: the whys whens and hows
Legend writes:

he is bound by his own rules. And rule #1 says that God cannot forgive and move on, like you and I can, oh no, God has to see some blood on the ground before he'll even look us in the eye again.


fallacycop writes:

I thought god was supposed to be omnipotent. Either way, this god you are describing sounds prety mean to me

yup... he sure does!

Legend writes:

And given the magnitude of the transgression made by our distant ancestors, this blood cannot be just anyone's - it has to be pure, sinless blood that will truely please God.


fallacycop writes:

I think the transgression was kind of minor. After all, the transgressors had no knowlege of good and evil at the time of transgression (they were like children) and cannot be fairly blamed by what they did

you would have thought so, wouldn't you? but God got realy miffed off with this and ensured (according to apostle Paul) that not only Adam & Eve but every single one of us pays for this transgression.

listen, I'm just giving you the non-sanitized mainstream Christian story.

If you want the fluffy, feel-good version talk to people like iano who might be able to explain to you how this God, despite seeming like a pedantic, cruel and limited deity, is really the omnipotent creator of everything who loves you very much (but will still see that you burn in hell if you don't believe in him).


"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by fallacycop, posted 05-29-2006 12:07 AM fallacycop has not yet responded

  
Legend
Member (Idle past 3343 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 14 of 238 (315877)
05-29-2006 6:26 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by iano
05-28-2006 8:23 PM


My hangups
iano writes:

You got hang ups about good things Legend?

no, but I do get hang ups about bad things being presented as good things,

for instance,

* 5 year old ex-company cars with 100K miles on them, on sale for 4 grand.....presented as a 'bargain'

* upgrades to software that does only half the things you want it to do , badly.....presented as 'essential'.

* a God who won't forgive and move on without making someone suffer......presented as 'loving' and 'caring'.

* a God who cannot forgive and move on without making someone suffer......presented as 'omnipotent' and 'creator of all'.

I could go on forever here nut I hope you get the drift by now.


"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by iano, posted 05-28-2006 8:23 PM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by iano, posted 05-29-2006 9:27 AM Legend has responded
 Message 89 by Larni, posted 06-07-2006 7:16 AM Legend has responded

  
iano
Member (Idle past 278 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 15 of 238 (315907)
05-29-2006 9:27 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Legend
05-29-2006 6:26 AM


Legend: the straw god demolition expert
no, but I do get hang ups about bad things being presented as good things,

You mean justice is a bad thing? You don't think its just that we be punished for the wrong things we do? Love, Justice, Wrath - all attributes of God - not at all taken account of in your heavily caricatured straw god. You can fabricate and demolish such gods all day long but I don't see what the fun is for you.

* a God who won't forgive and move on without making someone suffer......presented as 'loving' and 'caring'.

He is just and wrath and he will convict and then punish sin. If he was only justness and wrath then there would be no possibility of forgiveness. We would all be declared guilty and punished. But because he is Love too there is a way provided whereby we can be forgiven. Your straw-god simply doesn't take his love, justness and wrath into account. It hops between them depending on which aspect you want to demolish? Is it because you cannot handle all three at once?

* a God who cannot forgive and move on without making someone suffer......presented as 'omnipotent' and 'creator of all'.

He can forgive and not make a person suffer at all. What you seem to require is a kind of "magic wand" god - probably stemming from your caricature of the word "omnipotentence":

wikipedia writes:

In the scholastic understanding, omnipotence is generally understood to be compatible with certain limitations upon God's power, as opposed to implying infinite abilities. There are certain things that even an omnipotent God cannot do.

Certain things God cannot do. For instance God cannot act contrary to himself. If he is love, justness and wrath then he cannot act contrary to love, justice and wrath. Any way he finds to deal with us MUST be consistant with ALL his attributes - otherwise he would be inconsistant with himself. And an inconsitant god is more to be feared than a consistant one.

Take his forgiveness for example. True forgiveness doesn't just wave a magic wand and 'Poof' everything is alright. There is the offence to be dealt with. I come to a dinner party in your place, have too many beers and crash into your sideboard knocking your very expensive lamp to the floor, breaking it into pieces. I chose to drink too many beers - my fault. But you forgive me. What that means in fact is that:

- you either do without a lamp, in which case you are down an asset. Your asset. You take the financial hit

- you replace the lamp. You take the financial hit.

God cannot simply magic-wand forgive. He must take the financial hit. He must pay for your offence. Thats just the way it is. If he does so then it is his love which does so. But he can eqaully apply justice, demand payment and when payment isn't forthcoming, punish (exercise wrath) against the person who can't pay for their crime.

Either forgive or don't forgive. Both can be as equally applied as the other. Something must cause it to swing to one and not the other. The default happens to be justness and wrath (for that is what he promished the person who infected you with the disease - that person having dominion over creation which includes you). And for forgiveness to apply instead of wrath what Gods system (whereby all is held consistant) is that a person acknowledges what they have done.

He won't forgive someone who doesn't acknowledge their total guilt.

In case you make a mistaken leap of logic; this is not the same as his asking a Christian to forgive someone who doesn't acknowledge their offending them. When he asks a Christian to forgive he does so on the basis that he has forgiven us everything and so we should forgive others who are as guilty as us. Our forgiving them doesn't pay the price of their crime - the will have to answer to him for it


This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Legend, posted 05-29-2006 6:26 AM Legend has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by CK, posted 05-29-2006 9:45 AM iano has responded
 Message 17 by Legend, posted 05-29-2006 10:16 AM iano has responded

  
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