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Author Topic:   What Does the Second Coming Entail?
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 6 of 238 (315667)
05-27-2006 8:21 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by ok boy
05-27-2006 10:50 AM


Heavens above!
1. What do people think step 5 might be like and how it might work?
Nemisis J has expanded well on that which I wrote to you regarding your second question in the 'God and Demons' thread. Evil fulfills various logical purposes not least of which is enabling true love freely given.
I suspect that that is the 'prize' for God that makes all this worthwhile. People often point the finger at God and 'blame' him for what goes wrong and all our suffering. Not realising that God suffers greatly too. Far worse than us in fact. In a "sex education" thread running here some folk expressed their views on sex. And some hold to the view that any kind of sex with anybody of any sex at anytime - is fine by them. In exercising those choices they don't see it as suffering. They see it (or teach themselves to see it) as great fun. And if they catch some disease well hey! - "in most instances a couple of jabs down at the clinic will likely sort it out..."
But God suffers everytime they act on this choice. God loves everyone immensely and to watch them destroy themselves in the myriad of ways they do causes him anguish. But there was no other way. Freely given love is what he wants us to have for him - for he knows just how much joy that will bring us - far more joy than getting our end away with Mr's O'Brien up in number 43 when her husband is at work. Like any one who loves another - you love it when they are enjoying themselves - it gives YOU pleasure when a beloved is happy.
What will heaven be like? Well God says that "no eye has seen and no mind has conceived the wonderful things that God has prepared in advance (because he knows who they will be naturally) for those who love him" This should whet our appetite. But for now we can suppose quite a ways - even if we don't know him now and the joy that that brings to a person who knows him now.
In heaven there will be no evil anymore. It can serve no purpose. By not rejecting his gospel (or mechanism by which he saves us) we will have in effect 'chosen' to freely love him whilst alive. Once that situation is settled then there is no use for evil anymore (once the temporal plan is done and dusted). We have been moved irrevocibly back to within the boundaries he sets for us - like Adam, but having made the 'right' 'choice'. There is no need to re-enact the scene again. Time will have served its purpose.
What will heaven be like? I suspect it will have much of what earth has in terms of us expressing the gifts that God gives each one of us. And that there will be work to do which will involve expressing those gifts. But with no fall it will never get boring - it will contain all the excitement on might feel when one embarks on a new job full of potential and purpose. All the work will be focused at expressing love - as some work is done now. Love for each other and love for God.
Start imagining a world as now but begin to subtract that which you know to be evil from it - bit by bit. The more you subtract the better it gets. But however good your imagination (aided perhaps by a spreadsheet so as to track the effects of evil being removed across the matrix of society)...
"No eye has seen and no mind has conceived, the wonderful things that God has prepared in advance for those who (free-willingly) love him"
One can picture the same thing (in inverted fashion) for Hell

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by ok boy, posted 05-27-2006 10:50 AM ok boy has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Legend, posted 05-28-2006 5:56 AM iano has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 10 of 238 (315834)
05-28-2006 8:23 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Legend
05-28-2006 5:56 AM


Re: Heavens above!
see, we both just said the same thing there , but you used fluffy, feel-good words like 'love', 'joy' and 'happy' to make it sound like a good thing. You even got Mrs O'Brien in there for that 'it-could-be-you' sense of familiarity.
Which more or less means that we didn't say the same thing. I'm not sure whether to be relieved or anguished. You got hang ups about good things Legend?
I learn my lesson in presentational writing and bow in humility before you - I'm not worthy, I'm not worthy!
Your a sinner - just like me. And neither of us are worthy of him. The difference is that I accept that fact.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Legend, posted 05-28-2006 5:56 AM Legend has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Legend, posted 05-29-2006 6:26 AM iano has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 15 of 238 (315907)
05-29-2006 9:27 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Legend
05-29-2006 6:26 AM


Legend: the straw god demolition expert
no, but I do get hang ups about bad things being presented as good things,
You mean justice is a bad thing? You don't think its just that we be punished for the wrong things we do? Love, Justice, Wrath - all attributes of God - not at all taken account of in your heavily caricatured straw god. You can fabricate and demolish such gods all day long but I don't see what the fun is for you.
* a God who won't forgive and move on without making someone suffer......presented as 'loving' and 'caring'.
He is just and wrath and he will convict and then punish sin. If he was only justness and wrath then there would be no possibility of forgiveness. We would all be declared guilty and punished. But because he is Love too there is a way provided whereby we can be forgiven. Your straw-god simply doesn't take his love, justness and wrath into account. It hops between them depending on which aspect you want to demolish? Is it because you cannot handle all three at once?
* a God who cannot forgive and move on without making someone suffer......presented as 'omnipotent' and 'creator of all'.
He can forgive and not make a person suffer at all. What you seem to require is a kind of "magic wand" god - probably stemming from your caricature of the word "omnipotentence":
wikipedia writes:
In the scholastic understanding, omnipotence is generally understood to be compatible with certain limitations upon God's power, as opposed to implying infinite abilities. There are certain things that even an omnipotent God cannot do.
Certain things God cannot do. For instance God cannot act contrary to himself. If he is love, justness and wrath then he cannot act contrary to love, justice and wrath. Any way he finds to deal with us MUST be consistant with ALL his attributes - otherwise he would be inconsistant with himself. And an inconsitant god is more to be feared than a consistant one.
Take his forgiveness for example. True forgiveness doesn't just wave a magic wand and 'Poof' everything is alright. There is the offence to be dealt with. I come to a dinner party in your place, have too many beers and crash into your sideboard knocking your very expensive lamp to the floor, breaking it into pieces. I chose to drink too many beers - my fault. But you forgive me. What that means in fact is that:
- you either do without a lamp, in which case you are down an asset. Your asset. You take the financial hit
- you replace the lamp. You take the financial hit.
God cannot simply magic-wand forgive. He must take the financial hit. He must pay for your offence. Thats just the way it is. If he does so then it is his love which does so. But he can eqaully apply justice, demand payment and when payment isn't forthcoming, punish (exercise wrath) against the person who can't pay for their crime.
Either forgive or don't forgive. Both can be as equally applied as the other. Something must cause it to swing to one and not the other. The default happens to be justness and wrath (for that is what he promished the person who infected you with the disease - that person having dominion over creation which includes you). And for forgiveness to apply instead of wrath what Gods system (whereby all is held consistant) is that a person acknowledges what they have done.
He won't forgive someone who doesn't acknowledge their total guilt.
In case you make a mistaken leap of logic; this is not the same as his asking a Christian to forgive someone who doesn't acknowledge their offending them. When he asks a Christian to forgive he does so on the basis that he has forgiven us everything and so we should forgive others who are as guilty as us. Our forgiving them doesn't pay the price of their crime - the will have to answer to him for it

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Legend, posted 05-29-2006 6:26 AM Legend has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by CK, posted 05-29-2006 9:45 AM iano has replied
 Message 17 by Legend, posted 05-29-2006 10:16 AM iano has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 18 of 238 (315942)
05-29-2006 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by CK
05-29-2006 9:45 AM


Re: response makes no sense.
Why not? your christian god should be able to do it - I don't understand this concept of him paying - in what sense is he paying for it? How can something infinite and all-powerful "pay" in any meaningful fashion?
http://EvC Forum: Salvation by faith and works : intellectually ridiculous? -->EvC Forum: Salvation by faith and works : intellectually ridiculous?
I don't know how meaningful it will be to you but until such time as we get a handle on what a punishement exercised in eternity means we must take his word that it was meaningful enough for him and sufficient price to pay for our sins.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by CK, posted 05-29-2006 9:45 AM CK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by CK, posted 05-29-2006 11:10 AM iano has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 22 of 238 (315956)
05-29-2006 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Legend
05-29-2006 10:16 AM


Re: where do I find the definition for Justice in the Christial dictionary ?
You mean justice is a bad thing? You don't think its just that we be punished for the wrong things we do?
so... when Paul says (Rom 5:12-15) that death has entered the world through Adam's transgression and everyone dies as a result of sin even if they hadn't sinned after Adam's transgression does that seem just to you ??
When Adam died that day, it wasn't his body that died it was his spirit (think of a mans spirit as receptiveness to and relationship with, God). His body also suffered consequences: it become capable of dying too. Thus infected he spread the dead spirit to all born from him and the capability of body dying to all born from him. All the way down to you and men. We were all born sinners for that is what a person with a dead spirit is even before they have a chance to actually express it. We are sinners - that is why we sin. Not that we are sinners because we sin. There is a difference
The question is, is that fair? Well why not? Adam was given dominion over everything before he sinned. He was given the status of head of state so to speak. When he went down his state went down with him - us included.
A child born with HIV is born so for no reason other than her parentage. It is not a question of fairness or justness it is a result of the action of its parents or its parents parents.
Was God fair in giving Adam such dominion knowing that Adam could either use or misuse that dominion. I don't see it as a question of fairness. God gave it to a being who was made free-willed and it was Adam who lost it. God has nothing to do with it other than giving him the choice. Was giving the choice unjust? He has every right to deal with Adams sin and its consequences (us) with justness and wrath. And every right to deal with it with love - fortunately
Anyway. To the question I asked. You know right from wrong and you do wrong at times knowing that you do it and could do otherwise. Should this wrongdoing of yours be punished or shouldn't it? Note you are not punished because you are a sinner - that is not your fault. You are punished for your own sin. Knowing right and choosing to do wrong.
can you enumerate the wrong things that a two-year old child has done before dying from leukemia ?
The child died because it was a sinner and had a sinners mortal body. It does raise the question as to the childs position before God. I don't know but seeing as it committed no sin as far as we can tell we must suspect that the child will not be punished for sin they did not commit
is it just that people suffer and die because of something that their distant ancestors did ?
They suffer because of the diseased creation that arose due to Adams fallen dominion. Famine, earthquake etc. They die because of a disease caught from their ancestor and they sin because if the disease. See us as addicts to sin (or as the Bible puts it: slaves to sin) We are addicted to a deadly substance and choose to stick the needle in. To counter that we have God offering to cure us from our addiction. Do we want a cure or do we prefer to keep the needle. Well, that is down to us I suppose (predestination/free choice discussion notwithstanding)
is it just that you pay the price for something that I did wrong ?
Its about dominion. When a head of a dominion chooses a direction which goes counter to another, bigger power then it is the dominion which suffers. Our own wars show us that. Because the subjects of the dominion row in with the notions of their head of state. We choose to sin Legend - make no mistake about it.
?? that's a non-sequitur. I'm all justness and wrath (often, believe me) yet I can forgive people who accept their mistake and apologise. I also don't take it out on their children and grandchildren.
Justness doesn't forgive - it applies justice. What your talking about is a mixture of justice and love (and a probably an inconsistant one at that). Perfect justice applies perfect justice and applies the perfect punishment to match the crime. Every time.
you're contradicting yourself ian. Can God simply forgive and move on or can't he ? If he's paid the price then why do we still have to ? If he's taken the hit, as you say, then the issue is closed, we're forgiven, let's move on, right?
I'm not that sure where the contradiction is but I'll attempt to extract it out of what you say here. He's paid then why do I have to?.
Try to think of this in a legal, forensic sense. A complete sense. I knock over you lamp and you say "I forgive you" But I say I don't want your forgiveness, it wasn't me and that I didn't do anything in order to need forgiveness. There are reasons to act so: forgiveness puts on us in a debtors position w.r.t. the forgiver. The debt need not ever be called in but a debtor we would remain. You see it in the movies all the time: Saving Private Ryan at the very end where Old Man Ryan stands asking did he 'earn it' He felt a sense of debt to Captain Miller as respresentitive of those who saved his life
And if we prefer to be without debt then deny our need of forgiveness we will. So, in order to be forgiven the offender needs to accept the forgiveness. They need to place themselves in the forgivers debt.
Do you need forgiveness Legend?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Legend, posted 05-29-2006 10:16 AM Legend has replied

Replies to this message:
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iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 23 of 238 (315984)
05-29-2006 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Legend
05-29-2006 10:16 AM


Re: where do I find the definition for Justice in the Christial dictionary ?
Legend writes:
where do I find the definition for Justice in the Christian dictionary ?
Forgot this bit.
On the cross Legend. Gods justice in all its glory. You'll find his wrath there too. And his love.
Edited by iano, : expand a little

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Legend, posted 05-29-2006 10:16 AM Legend has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 36 of 238 (317072)
06-02-2006 7:00 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by CK
05-29-2006 11:10 AM


Re: response makes no sense.
I'm even more baffled now - your christian god is still paying the price because 2000 years ago, he came down and got a avatar of his nailed to a piece of wood. The creator of the universe is still "paying" for that event?
Eternity = timeless. Time = seconds elapsing one after the other. If I sin now, he suffered in paying for it then - for it was known then that I would sin now and that I would come to him in order that he might pay for it. It raises the (useful) spectre of my sin now contributing to his pain then( not on-the-cross-physical pain but the spiritual pain of separation from his Father). The fact that I love and know that he suffered/suffers for me means that I listen to him when he tells me to avoid sinning. Not that he does this to avoid suffering he will take whatever I cause - but to avoid me having to live with me doing that to someone I love
For who likes causing a beloved to be punished?
He then invites you to the nightclub and when you get there, Bob says "boy this is an expensive nightclub - but hey let me show you how I care, I'll pay for you to get in". He then proceeds to take some money out of the cash-register and then makes a big show of putting it back in - he "pays" for you.
If you take the throw away "big show" bit then its not a bad analogy. It was his money he took out and put back in. It was his to take out (he can fill in a tab to say so and so make his accounts straight) and his to do with as he pleases. He could have done a dozen things and they would be all okay. But he pays for you to get in. And you enter. He is now down 1 x entry price. He gives you a gift of entry that is not by right yours.
Bob then spends all of his time reminding you that he paid for you to get into the nightclub. He also gets his friends to do the same. Bob says because of this, you should be grateful and do him favours. You all know that bob owns the nightclub and therefore actually hasn't paid anything at all and that he just took the money out of the till and then just put it back in.
This is were your analogy comes a little unstuck. Try this variation
Bob says "Welcome to the nightclub! Boy, am I glad you here for you will really like this! Now, I gotta go welcome some other guests so this is what I recommend you do. But if you don't fancy what I recommend then by all means ignore my advice. As the owner who knows this place inside out and as one who has a pretty good idea of the lay of the land I can point you to all the best bits. But don't worry - if you decide to do it your way and have too much beer and get sick on my carpet I won't kick you out of the club. Ever. For I was the one who invited you in. You simply took up the invite. If that creates problems for me then that is my problem. Okay you'll have a sick stomach but hey I didn't pour that beer down it did I? Let me look afer the sick on the carpet though will ya?.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by CK, posted 05-29-2006 11:10 AM CK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by ringo, posted 06-02-2006 8:11 PM iano has not replied
 Message 39 by Legend, posted 06-03-2006 4:41 AM iano has replied
 Message 40 by CK, posted 06-03-2006 8:03 AM iano has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 41 of 238 (317184)
06-03-2006 10:03 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by Legend
06-03-2006 4:41 AM


Re: still makes no sense.
you forgot the part where Bob says: "you've been sick on my carpet but I forgive you as long as you, your children and your children's children accept my cousin Dave as their personal Lord and Saviour."
Hardly. Long before this point you were invited to the night club. That you arrived at the door means that you wanted to gain entry. You might have been willing to pay the price of admission but you find that the price is way too expensive for you. You can't afford to take up the invite. Turning away, for you know that if you can't pay you have no right of entry, you hear Bob call you back and open the till and pay your for your entry. You can refuse his generous offer. Or accept it. If you don't accept it the the money hasn't paid for anything, nothing has changed. If you do accept it then that money has paid for you.
Getting sick on his carpet later doesn't mean you'll be chucked out. There are no laws of the nightclub which can be invoked so as to throw a person out. Not getting sick, not getting into a fight. Bob doesn't do bouncers. Legally, the price of admission has been paid so you have as much right to be there as anyone else.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Legend, posted 06-03-2006 4:41 AM Legend has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Legend, posted 06-03-2006 11:42 AM iano has replied
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iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 43 of 238 (317191)
06-03-2006 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by CK
06-03-2006 8:03 AM


Re: Sin as control
Eternity = timeless. Time = seconds elapsing one after the other. If I sin now, he suffered in paying for it then - for it was known then that I would sin now and that I would come to him in order that he might pay for it. It raises the (useful) spectre of my sin now contributing to his pain then (not on-the-cross-physical pain but the spiritual pain of separation from his Father).The fact that I love him and know that he suffered/suffers for me means that I listen to him when he tells me to avoid sinning. Not that he does this to avoid suffering - he will take whatever suffering I cause him - but to avoid me having to live with me doing that to someone I love
CK writes:
So Sin is a control mechanism by your God?
My sin has a part to play. He uses love to 'get me to conform to the way he wants me to be'. And I don't have to conform if I don't want to. If I do I do so willingly - because I love him and accept that he knows what is right for me.
Sin is used by me to run away from him. He shows me MY sin so that I will run back. The decision to allow him to deal with me so was made by me 5 years ago. I agreed with his terms and conditions. He can do whatever he likes with me as far as I am concerned. Its called accepting his Lordship over me.
Either one can be a slave to sin or a slave to love. Its not like rejecting God means you are free of slavery
It still makes little or no sense - your God seems a very odd character, he makes a flawed creation which has the end result of causing him constant pain. All this he must have known before he started.
You can assert his making a flawed creation til the cows comes home CK. That he knew it would become so does not mean he made it so. Yamaha made a perfect Fazer 1000. Iano, the one who has dominion over it made it into a scuffed Fazer 1000 about 6 weeks ago when he choose to enter a corner at a speed higher than he knew was sensible. I knew there were consequences for acting outside the limits of my tyres grip. I didn't know exactly what they would be. As it was I got off lightly. Adam didn't
Edited by iano, : format

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by CK, posted 06-03-2006 8:03 AM CK has replied

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iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 47 of 238 (317210)
06-03-2006 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Legend
06-03-2006 11:42 AM


Re: still makes no sense.
so you're saying I can walk in the club any time I like, right ? No catches ?
Unless accepting Bobs offer constitutes a catch for you then no, there are no catches. Of course, to wind back a little, you do have to know where this nightclub is before you even get to worrying about the finer details such as this. Wanting to go to this nightclub is an essential start. Finding ones way there is the next step.
Getting sick on his carpet later doesn't mean you'll be chucked out.....Legally, the price of admission has been paid so you have as much right to be there as anyone else.
now I'm really confused! If the price has been paid and I have the right to be there then where does Jesus fit in ?
Jesus gives the currency validity. If the owner paid with Monopoly money then that is not true payment. The currency in this nightclub must be legal tender. It must be acceptable to the nightclubs auditors (God as justice) as a means of paying for our entry. The currency is Jesus Righteousness (or right standing before God) and there is plenty in the kitty. No matter how much sin needs to be paid for there is enough to go round.
The right for you to enter has been paid for but if the right isn't exercised then the money just sits there waiting in a vacuum. It has unrealised potential. Remember, the owner has taken it out of the till and put it back. In a legal sense, nothing has actually happened in fact until you are in the nightclub in which case the money has done what the owner assigned it to do. The owner paying for your right to enter doesn't mean the owner can drag you in off the street!
At at some point the time will come when the nightclub is ready to kick off. Some won't have wanted to come at all, some will have wanted to but cannot find their way there. Some will stand outside but won't accept the offer and come in. Then the doors will close and have a lock called death put in place. Bob will do a quick recce of the till and find that there are far more funds than there are people in the nightclub. "I know what - I'll take all these unclaimed payments, the potential of which was never realised and kick off the night by buying a round of drinks for everyone who came"
They are his funds and if he wants to reassign them for some other use at any time then that is his right.
Why is Paul / John banging on about Jesus as the 'Paschal lamb' ?
The sacrifice of a lamb in OT times was the valid currency for the temporal covering of sin. Jesus as Paschal lamb is being declared by Paul et al as valid currency for full and final payment of sins.
Why is Paul saying that ONLY through faith in Jesus can one be justified ?
Because that is the way it is. Faith in Jesus is something which is necessary but it is supplied to us by God. We couldn't work it up for ourselves. God attempts to put a desire for this faith into us too (although we won't recognise what it is until after we come and can see things more clearly). All we can do is reject his attempt to do this. To refuse his offer into the nightclub.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Legend, posted 06-03-2006 11:42 AM Legend has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Legend, posted 06-03-2006 2:29 PM iano has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 49 of 238 (317231)
06-03-2006 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Legend
06-03-2006 2:29 PM


Our first EvC conversion?
I'm accepting his offer. Can I come in now?
If you have accepted his offer then thats it. Your in. Welcome Legend
(Just out of curiousity but if you don't want to say thats fine. What did you say to him in your accepting of his offer?)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Legend, posted 06-03-2006 2:29 PM Legend has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Legend, posted 06-03-2006 3:28 PM iano has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 53 of 238 (317262)
06-03-2006 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Legend
06-03-2006 3:28 PM


Re: Our first EvC conversion?
but I try to do good and help those around me whenever I can. Can I come in ?
In our little analogy this would see you standing in the queue poking around in your wallet for the price of admission. Pay up yourself or accept his currency. Dems d'options
You don't have to understand how it is that his currency works. But you do have to accept his invite.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Legend, posted 06-03-2006 3:28 PM Legend has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Legend, posted 06-03-2006 5:25 PM iano has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 55 of 238 (317303)
06-03-2006 6:03 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Legend
06-03-2006 5:25 PM


Re: Our first EvC conversion?
hold on, all along you've been saying that he's paid the price for me to come in. Well, has he or hasn't he ?
He has. The money to pay for your admission is sitting in the till as we speak. But paying the price of your admission himself is only one aspect of things. You bring up another which I'll jump to now
what's stopping me from coming in?
Well you see, this nightclub is positioned on the top floor of a giant skyscraper and there are no lifts or stairways. And you clean forgot to bring a helicoptor with you. He is inviting you in and assures you that if you only accept his invite he will bring you in. You don't have to walk in or go get a helicopter - for that would be a hoop you have to get through yourself. He doesn't do hoops
You only have to accept his invite. "Yes I want to come in"
Do you accept his invite?
your little analogy seems to be twisting and changing all the time.
It was CK's little analogy not mine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Legend, posted 06-03-2006 5:25 PM Legend has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Legend, posted 06-03-2006 6:41 PM iano has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 58 of 238 (317340)
06-03-2006 7:26 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Legend
06-03-2006 6:41 PM


Re: Our first EvC conversion?
You accept? You say the words "I accept his invite" but they are only words. I asked "do you accept his invite" - a quite different thing. For you to accept his invite you would have to believe that an invite exists. No one can accept something they do not believe to be the case. That is not acceptance that is delusion. And if you believe the invite exists you would also believe
- that Bob has a nightclub up there at the top floor (which you have never seen)
- that the club is impossibly expensive necessitating his paying with his own money for your entry. And you've never even met the guy.
- that the money he used to pay was valid and legal currency not Monopoly money
- that he would somehow be able to get you up the top of this skyscraper without stairs or lifts
- that Bob exists at all
It seems that in order to accept these things one has to first believe things such as these. Do you believe these things Legend?
you've done more ducking & diving than a duck attempting to break the world's free-diving record.
Not without reason Legend.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Legend, posted 06-03-2006 6:41 PM Legend has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by lfen, posted 06-03-2006 8:29 PM iano has not replied
 Message 60 by Legend, posted 06-04-2006 5:09 AM iano has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 80 of 238 (318021)
06-05-2006 4:52 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Legend
06-04-2006 5:09 AM


Re: Our first EvC conversion?
iano writes:
that Bob has a nightclub up there at the top floor (which you have never seen)
Legend writes:
FAS, I'm prepared to believe that.
I'm not sure what 'FAS' means, but my question is: why are you prepared to believe this? And what has preparedness to do with it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Legend, posted 06-04-2006 5:09 AM Legend has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by Legend, posted 06-05-2006 5:57 PM iano has not replied

  
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