Atheism is a belief (Why Atheists don't believe part 2)

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If you ever go looking however and you are wondering where to begin then you could do worse than check Him out. If you are as sure of your intellect as you say. Sure so as to know you won't be fooled by horseshit then you could do worse than ask him to help you find him. Long before you get to that point (if ever) it may be that your heart (rather than your head) finds it wants him (even if you don't know its him your looking for). He will work with that want. That's all he really wants - is for you to want him - even if you don't know him (like how can you know him before you know him - that'd be intellectually ridiculous!).

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Just as an aside - that's pretty much word for word the approach that Riverrat tries. This is the interesting bit for me: Did you both arrive at the vanity/reverse psychology approach independently or is it a approach that is advocated in a book or a guide?

Did rR say much the same thing? Hmm.I think its plain logic CK. We can only rely on our intellects, gut, 6th sense whatever. Ourselves in other words. That's who we rely on. All other people who we rely on are subsets of our relying on us. I rely on my dentist for my intellect says he is a good dentist rather than a crap one.I don't get what vanity/reverse psychology has to do with it.

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The son is as much God as is the father. The Father sacrificed his son and punished him instead of us. God punished God. God punished himself.

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I'm not sure I understand. I thought Jesus' dying words were that God had forsaken, abondoned, or "let him down"... depending on your translation.If he was punishing himself, to himself, for himself... then why would his son's(God's) last words be ones of abandonment and not a testament of some kind to his glory?When it comes to the sacrafice, this part always confused me.- Babelfish

I suppose it would confuse unless you can fully get your head around the idea of the Trinity - which I can't. Three distinct persons who are one God? We are temporal and we can only be given (in the written word) temporal pictures to indicate something of what happens in eternity. Hell is pictured as fire whereas I'm pretty sure that it only describes pain unimaginable - for instance.The sacrifice was the break in the perfect relationship that had existed between Father and Son. We don't know what that would be like fully but can imagine the loss that the separation by death causes, for we undergo it too. There is probably no more anguish a parent can suffer than to have a child die. God the Father was willing to undergo this. That is sacrifice. And the Son? Foresaken. "My God, My God". The only time Jesus didn't refer to God as his father. Still alive and foresaken by his Father. For a child there is no worse than this. And he was as a little child. For a little child is so bonded to their father that to lose him is to die oneself.And the father had to abandon his son. For his son was wrapped up in filth and dirt of all our sin. God cannot look upon the bearer of sin. He must look away. We don't really understand the level of what the relationship was like. But we can picture it. We can imagine the pain of a person who has committed adultery and child molestation and rape and murder when they see the one they love look away from them in abject disgust when their eyes meet for the first time at the point of execution. We can especially imagine how anguishing it would be for the son when the sin is not his. But he choses take the punishment rather that tell the loved on that it was not his. All Jesus had to do was say "No! it is not my crime - I don't want to pay" and the Father would have willingly released him from that cross.But he didn't. He took the punishment of Gods wrath and drank it to the very last drop. And he did speak words of glory. "It is finished". Gods mission. Accomplished. Then "Father (addressing him thus again) into thy hands I commend my spirit"The punishment only had to happen for a nanosecond of time. For it happened in eternity - where there is no time. How long does punishment last in eternity? Forever?We should feel privileged. He did it for us. Instead we spit at him everyday - you and me both.Something written elsewhere on the subject. I'm not sure if this helps.http://EvC Forum: Salvation by faith and works : intellectually ridiculous? -->EvC Forum: Salvation by faith and works : intellectually ridiculous?

Dissociation creating multiple personality disorder? This is an imaginative religious soap opera taken to pathological extremes! but what theology is the basis of this? Does God witness wars? disease? death? Does he see bacteria and nematodes etc. breaking down excrement into rich fertilizing soil? How can something that is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent abandon anything? And you know this how? And was Jesus also God or not? Did not God and Jesus then know that they were to be reunited? What you have described is a hysterical mother upset by her child being in the hospital for three days. We are supposed to be impressed that divine beings suffer what we suffer every day only they know omnisciently that it's only a brief span of time?Your soap opera is but emotional hysteria that sheds no light on the nature of the source of the universe.I am beginning to think you have way too much imagination for an engineer!lfen

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You were a Christian? Hmmm.

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Whats a Christian Schraf? (talk about me setting 'em up and you knock 'em down! An valiant attempt at an objective answer would be appreciated however)

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I believed in God and that Jesus was his son and died for my sins so that I could have eternal life in heaven.Is that Christian enough for you?

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I suspect it would have been very tough for you to carry on believing with all those doubts running riot upstairs.

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Not exactly. I really didn't have any sort of agonizing struggle or deep anguish over it.

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I know that I was close to the change and it was very difficult to deny my own musings and stay faithful.

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There was no way I could have remained faithful to the Christian version of God, it had become far too silly to me.I think the closest thing I could possibly entertain as a religious view would be a very weak interest in Buddhism, except that I disagree with the idea that one should strive to quell one's desires.I like my desires too much to give them up, so Buddhism proper is not for me. However, I do like the general principles of behavior and the guilt-free nature of the philosophy. Very kind and humane. Nothing like Christianity.

Yes very prejudice! I know I am late in this, but that is the way it goes.your talking about a book full of myths. Sorry no, faith never apresent from santa made. Go ahead, uniformed opinions never make truths. Sorry, cannot think of one thing that I take on faith blindly. Who's god;Yours our my forefathers?You mean 'well not find any'.choice? A choice between superstition or reality. Why you'r doing a very good job without me! Ah, your a true athiest and can now make this claim! No sorry novoices in my head. What do 'inner feelings' have to do with this.Soyou also think your a mind reader? Is not hateful feelings opposite of what you are suppose to follow?Does it bother you that athiest are more secure in life than you seemto be? Please don't stop.I would love to see these mathmaticalpossibilities and how you arrived at the answers.I know that this is far in to the thread.RiVeRrat there is no god or maker-man or coyote-man, zeus, baal,wodin, shiva, kali.If you want to see one reason that some athiestdo not believe,read back through yours iano faith and buzsaws post.I have never believed period.

To me I find nothing subjective about Jesus promising us the Holy Spirit, and me recieving it. You've said this about a bazillion times on this forum. So back it up.
You can't prove it, so it's nothing more than your belief. Or you haven't sought after Him enough. He is there, you just don't see Him. It's all there waiting for you.It's aparent in your responses, when you say things like "your god". It's not my god that you need to find, it's your God. See, you look for God in religions, a big mistake IMO.
Obviously scientology is not where you will find God.

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To me I find nothing subjective about Jesus promising us the Holy Spirit, and me recieving it.

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so? It's still an entirely subjective point of view.

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Or you haven't sought after Him enough. He is there, you just don't see Him. It's all there waiting for you.

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not interested in the slighest - death and a body rotting in the ground is what is waiting for us all.

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It's aparent in your responses, when you say things like "your god". It's not my god that you need to find, it's your God.

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"Your god" is a reference to YOUR belief in one of the christian gods (whichever particular version it is you follow), it says nothing at all about me. I'm trying to avoid saying "god" (singular) because even you christians (each of you claiming to be TRUE CHRISTIAN) all seem to be following slightly different versions and I'm trying to avoid confusion.

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See, you look for God in religions, a big mistake IMO.

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No I said religious - not religion - it's nice not to misquote people.

Welcome randy to the forum! ??? This seems to be a prgramed response about whether God exists or not. IT's getting tiresome. You'll have to do some more reading in these forums, as we have covered topics like that.It is plainly obvious why santa doesn't exist and to refer to it is childish. Like santa. Thank you, that is the response I was looking for. Define reality. Who said anything about voices?One thing I think we can all admit to is that we seek the truth.
We are born that way. Another pre-programmed response that they must teach in college these days. I can hate, I am human. That is an illusion, and an immature response. Don't pretend to me, or any other "religious person" because I hate religon. The possibilities that we exist are slim and none, but we are hear.Do like the evolutionist do, and just throw the term "millions of years" and you have an answer for anything. While it is "plainly" obvious how long the universe has been around, what was here before it, and what evolved into God as we know it? Look how far we've come in just such a short time. We are little gods.
Why can't God be a possibility? That's a piss poor exuse to not believe in God, I won't accept it. We are not gods, we are just like you. Ah, but have you ever wondered?

Then everything is subjective as we can only look at things through our own mind, even tests performed outside of our minds. Why? Being a "true christian" does not make any of us Jesus.
The variations are because we are all different people, plainly obvious. Jesus was one person, Son of God, the only "true Christian" IMO.I put myself on the same level as you, because ultimately, I just don't know what will happen in the end.

SEeking God's guidance and approval may be different that what you think it is, and you may be doing it already.I like your attitude.

Again, I am saying this is not a default position.Would you agree that we are all born seeking the truth?

Not only lack of belief, but an inability to prove that God doesn't exist.