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Author Topic:   What Does the Second Coming Entail?
CK
Member (Idle past 4127 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 16 of 238 (315913)
05-29-2006 9:45 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by iano
05-29-2006 9:27 AM


response makes no sense.
quote:
God cannot simply magic-wand forgive. He must take the financial hit. He must pay for your offence.
Why not? your christian god should be able to do it - I don't understand this concept of him paying - in what sense is he paying for it? How can something infinite and all-powerful "pay" in any meaningful fashion?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by iano, posted 05-29-2006 9:27 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by iano, posted 05-29-2006 10:55 AM CK has replied

  
Legend
Member (Idle past 5005 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 17 of 238 (315926)
05-29-2006 10:16 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by iano
05-29-2006 9:27 AM


where do I find the definition for Justice in the Christial dictionary ?
iano writes:
You mean justice is a bad thing? You don't think its just that we be punished for the wrong things we do?
so... when Paul says (Rom 5:12-15) that death has entered the world through Adam's transgression and everyone dies as a result of sin even if they hadn't sinned after Adam's transgression does that seem just to you ??
can you enumerate the wrong things that a two-year old child has done before dying from leukemia ?
is it just that people suffer and die because of something that their distant ancestors did ?
is it just that you pay the price for something that I did wrong ?
iano writes:
If he was only justness and wrath then there would be no possibility of forgiveness.
?? that's a non-sequitur. I'm all justness and wrath (often, believe me) yet I can forgive people who accept their mistake and apologise. I also don't take it out on their children and grandchildren.
somehow, your God is unable to do that.
iano writes:
He can forgive and not make a person suffer at all
well..then why doesn't he ??
iano writes:
God cannot simply magic-wand forgive. He must take the financial hit. He must pay for your offence. Thats just the way it is
you're contradicting yourself ian. Can God simply forgive and move on or can't he ?
If he's paid the price then why do we still have to ?
If he's taken the hit, as you say, then the issue is closed, we're forgiven, let's move on, right?
There's no need for the whole 'believe in Jesus or else..' kerfufle.
There's no need for the 'we're all sinners because Adam sinned' nonsense.
You seem to be unable to explain this to yourself, let alone to me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by iano, posted 05-29-2006 9:27 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by iano, posted 05-29-2006 11:39 AM Legend has replied
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iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 18 of 238 (315942)
05-29-2006 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by CK
05-29-2006 9:45 AM


Re: response makes no sense.
Why not? your christian god should be able to do it - I don't understand this concept of him paying - in what sense is he paying for it? How can something infinite and all-powerful "pay" in any meaningful fashion?
http://EvC Forum: Salvation by faith and works : intellectually ridiculous? -->EvC Forum: Salvation by faith and works : intellectually ridiculous?
I don't know how meaningful it will be to you but until such time as we get a handle on what a punishement exercised in eternity means we must take his word that it was meaningful enough for him and sufficient price to pay for our sins.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by CK, posted 05-29-2006 9:45 AM CK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by CK, posted 05-29-2006 11:10 AM iano has replied

  
CK
Member (Idle past 4127 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 19 of 238 (315944)
05-29-2006 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by iano
05-29-2006 10:55 AM


Re: response makes no sense.
I'm even more baffled now - your christian god is still paying the price because 2000 years ago, he came down and got a avatar of his nailed to a piece of wood. The creator of the universe is still "paying" for that event?
And by not obeying him in a universe in which he created and all the rules - this causes him to somehow still "pay"? An infinite creator who creates a whole universe and associated reality finds something meaningful in being nailed to a piece of wood?
I must confess the more people explain the various christian gods to me - the less they makes sense (as a concept let alone a system of belief).
I know you like analogues - this is how that appears to a none-believer.
Bob builds and opens a nightclub.
He then invites you to the nightclub and when you get there, Bob says "boy this is an expensive nightclub - but hey let me show you how I care, I'll pay for you to get in". He then proceeds to take some money out of the cash-register and then makes a big show of putting it back in - he "pays" for you.
Bob then spends all of his time reminding you that he paid for you to get into the nightclub. He also gets his friends to do the same. Bob says because of this, you should be grateful and do him favours. You all know that bob owns the nightclub and therefore actually hasn't paid anything at all and that he just took the money out of the till and then just put it back in.
Edited by CK, : added analogue.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by iano, posted 05-29-2006 10:55 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Wounded King, posted 05-29-2006 11:19 AM CK has replied
 Message 36 by iano, posted 06-02-2006 7:00 PM CK has replied

  
Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 20 of 238 (315948)
05-29-2006 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by CK
05-29-2006 11:10 AM


Re: response makes no sense.
Comparing God to a weird nightclub owner makes baby Jesus cry.
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by CK, posted 05-29-2006 11:10 AM CK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by CK, posted 05-29-2006 11:24 AM Wounded King has not replied

  
CK
Member (Idle past 4127 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 21 of 238 (315951)
05-29-2006 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Wounded King
05-29-2006 11:19 AM


Allah is the man
Heh - I know it's seems mocking but I a) know that Iano likes analogues and b) am trying to contextualise his response as they seem to me as a atheist.
In some ways - that's why Islam seems to be a bit more straight forward, they do not have to overcome the conceptual hurdle of explaining all of this "the most powerful thing ever ever came to earth and was nailed to a piece of wood and it matters for some very complex reasons". Their god is straight forward "I am the main man - obey me or else" - as least it's simple!
Edited by CK, : Changing title.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Quetzal, posted 06-02-2006 11:01 AM CK has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 22 of 238 (315956)
05-29-2006 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Legend
05-29-2006 10:16 AM


Re: where do I find the definition for Justice in the Christial dictionary ?
You mean justice is a bad thing? You don't think its just that we be punished for the wrong things we do?
so... when Paul says (Rom 5:12-15) that death has entered the world through Adam's transgression and everyone dies as a result of sin even if they hadn't sinned after Adam's transgression does that seem just to you ??
When Adam died that day, it wasn't his body that died it was his spirit (think of a mans spirit as receptiveness to and relationship with, God). His body also suffered consequences: it become capable of dying too. Thus infected he spread the dead spirit to all born from him and the capability of body dying to all born from him. All the way down to you and men. We were all born sinners for that is what a person with a dead spirit is even before they have a chance to actually express it. We are sinners - that is why we sin. Not that we are sinners because we sin. There is a difference
The question is, is that fair? Well why not? Adam was given dominion over everything before he sinned. He was given the status of head of state so to speak. When he went down his state went down with him - us included.
A child born with HIV is born so for no reason other than her parentage. It is not a question of fairness or justness it is a result of the action of its parents or its parents parents.
Was God fair in giving Adam such dominion knowing that Adam could either use or misuse that dominion. I don't see it as a question of fairness. God gave it to a being who was made free-willed and it was Adam who lost it. God has nothing to do with it other than giving him the choice. Was giving the choice unjust? He has every right to deal with Adams sin and its consequences (us) with justness and wrath. And every right to deal with it with love - fortunately
Anyway. To the question I asked. You know right from wrong and you do wrong at times knowing that you do it and could do otherwise. Should this wrongdoing of yours be punished or shouldn't it? Note you are not punished because you are a sinner - that is not your fault. You are punished for your own sin. Knowing right and choosing to do wrong.
can you enumerate the wrong things that a two-year old child has done before dying from leukemia ?
The child died because it was a sinner and had a sinners mortal body. It does raise the question as to the childs position before God. I don't know but seeing as it committed no sin as far as we can tell we must suspect that the child will not be punished for sin they did not commit
is it just that people suffer and die because of something that their distant ancestors did ?
They suffer because of the diseased creation that arose due to Adams fallen dominion. Famine, earthquake etc. They die because of a disease caught from their ancestor and they sin because if the disease. See us as addicts to sin (or as the Bible puts it: slaves to sin) We are addicted to a deadly substance and choose to stick the needle in. To counter that we have God offering to cure us from our addiction. Do we want a cure or do we prefer to keep the needle. Well, that is down to us I suppose (predestination/free choice discussion notwithstanding)
is it just that you pay the price for something that I did wrong ?
Its about dominion. When a head of a dominion chooses a direction which goes counter to another, bigger power then it is the dominion which suffers. Our own wars show us that. Because the subjects of the dominion row in with the notions of their head of state. We choose to sin Legend - make no mistake about it.
?? that's a non-sequitur. I'm all justness and wrath (often, believe me) yet I can forgive people who accept their mistake and apologise. I also don't take it out on their children and grandchildren.
Justness doesn't forgive - it applies justice. What your talking about is a mixture of justice and love (and a probably an inconsistant one at that). Perfect justice applies perfect justice and applies the perfect punishment to match the crime. Every time.
you're contradicting yourself ian. Can God simply forgive and move on or can't he ? If he's paid the price then why do we still have to ? If he's taken the hit, as you say, then the issue is closed, we're forgiven, let's move on, right?
I'm not that sure where the contradiction is but I'll attempt to extract it out of what you say here. He's paid then why do I have to?.
Try to think of this in a legal, forensic sense. A complete sense. I knock over you lamp and you say "I forgive you" But I say I don't want your forgiveness, it wasn't me and that I didn't do anything in order to need forgiveness. There are reasons to act so: forgiveness puts on us in a debtors position w.r.t. the forgiver. The debt need not ever be called in but a debtor we would remain. You see it in the movies all the time: Saving Private Ryan at the very end where Old Man Ryan stands asking did he 'earn it' He felt a sense of debt to Captain Miller as respresentitive of those who saved his life
And if we prefer to be without debt then deny our need of forgiveness we will. So, in order to be forgiven the offender needs to accept the forgiveness. They need to place themselves in the forgivers debt.
Do you need forgiveness Legend?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Legend, posted 05-29-2006 10:16 AM Legend has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Legend, posted 05-29-2006 3:30 PM iano has not replied
 Message 27 by Legend, posted 06-02-2006 8:04 AM iano has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 23 of 238 (315984)
05-29-2006 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Legend
05-29-2006 10:16 AM


Re: where do I find the definition for Justice in the Christial dictionary ?
Legend writes:
where do I find the definition for Justice in the Christian dictionary ?
Forgot this bit.
On the cross Legend. Gods justice in all its glory. You'll find his wrath there too. And his love.
Edited by iano, : expand a little

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Legend, posted 05-29-2006 10:16 AM Legend has not replied

  
Legend
Member (Idle past 5005 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 24 of 238 (316037)
05-29-2006 3:30 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by iano
05-29-2006 11:39 AM


Re: where do I find the definition for Justice in the Christial dictionary ?
iano writes:
The question is, is that fair?
precisely. Also, is it just ?
iano writes:
Adam was given dominion over everything before he sinned. He was given the status of head of state so to speak. When he went down his state went down with him - us included.
we weren't even around at the time, we didn't vote for him, we didn't elect him.
is it fair that we have to pay for his actions, is it just ?
iano writes:
A child born with HIV is born so for no reason other than her parentage. It is not a question of fairness or justness it is a result of the action of its parents or its parents parents.
hold on.. you just said:
iano writes:
The question is, is that fair?
you're now saying that it's nothing to with fairness or justness?! God has full control over what happens to us, has he not?. He chooses to allow terrible things to happen to innocent people to satisfy his own rule that sins of parents are paid by the children too. I know we're agreeing so far because you've said:
iano writes:
The child died because it was a sinner and had a sinners mortal body.
So there's nothing to dispute up to this point. The question -like you said- is: is it fair ? is it just ?
iano writes:
God gave it to a being who was made free-willed and it was Adam who lost it. God has nothing to do with it other than giving him the choice
that's fine. Why do we have to pay for Adam's wrong choice ?
is it fair ? is it just ?
I've asked you if it's just that people suffer and die because of something that their distant ancestors did . You said:
iano writes:
They suffer because of the diseased creation that arose due to Adams fallen dominion. Famine, earthquake etc. They die because of a disease caught from their ancestor and they sin because if the disease.
I take it that's a NO then ?!
iano writes:
To counter that we have God offering to cure us from our addiction
What addiction are you on about?! There is no addiction! Adam & Eve broke one rule. That's it! God just can't forgive and move on. Even if there was an addiction God is the one who gave it us, he created us, remember ?
That's what gets me with Christians, when in a tight corner they act as if God is a distant observer who watches someone else's play unfold without the power to do anything.
When good things happen, it's God who made it happen.
When terrible things happen, well it's nothing to do with God, it's Adam's / devil's / sin's / our fault, God couldn't do anything, he doesn't interfere you see.
What a cop out, ian!
I asked you if it's just that you pay the price for something that I did wrong ?
You said:
iano writes:
Its about dominion. When a head of a dominion chooses a direction which goes counter to another, bigger power then it is the dominion which suffers
I'm not head of a dominion, Adam wasn't head of a dominion, but -most importantly- God is above any dominion, God makes the rules.
So it's not about dominion, like you said
iano writes:
The question is, is that fair?
well, is it fair? is it just?
iano writes:
We choose to sin Legend - make no mistake about it.
did the two-year old dying from leukemia choose to sin ?!
iano writes:
I knock over you lamp and you say "I forgive you" But I say I don't want your forgiveness, it wasn't me and that I didn't do anything in order to need forgiveness.
we've been though this before: it takes two to tango but only one to forgive. Forgiveness is up to the offended party ONLY.
Merriam-Webster online writes:
1 a : to give up resentment of or claim to requital for b : to grant relief from payment of
2 : to cease to feel resentment against (an offender) : PARDON
note the above definition doesn't mention acceptance or rejection of forgiveness, nor does it impose conditions. If you forgive, you forgive. Period.
most of us are capable of forgiving, your God isn't.

"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by iano, posted 05-29-2006 11:39 AM iano has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by CK, posted 05-29-2006 4:12 PM Legend has not replied

  
CK
Member (Idle past 4127 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 25 of 238 (316038)
05-29-2006 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Legend
05-29-2006 3:30 PM


Re: where do I find the definition for Justice in the Christial dictionary ?
quote:
I'm not head of a dominion, Adam wasn't head of a dominion, but -most importantly- God is above any dominion, God makes the rules.
So it's not about dominion
Indeed - how could Adam be head of a dominion? Before the fall, there was no sex, there were no children, there was no race, it appears from the bible that Adam and eve were immortal and would carry on forever - surely mankind could only have the potential to exist once they fell?
how could Adam be responsible for something that never had the potential to exist until reality was changed by the act of eating an apple?
EDIT - and now I think about it - how can Adam be responsible for a race that he has no concept or understanding of. It's like saying George Bush should take into the account, the effect of his actions on the multi-headed zhatgebeast. A creature he's never heard of, has never seen and at that moment doesn't exist.
Edited by CK, : typo - he becauses the
Edited by CK, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Legend, posted 05-29-2006 3:30 PM Legend has not replied

  
ok boy
Member (Idle past 4689 days)
Posts: 12
Joined: 05-22-2006


Message 26 of 238 (316334)
05-30-2006 3:44 PM


thanks to everyone for your replies and welcomes - i hope you don't mind me posting a general reply rather than individual ones, i promise i read and considered the posts and i'm getting a better idea of what the various positions are.
the verses from matthew suggested by Legend did help a bit, so i understand there will be some kind of judging (i guess of everyone who happens to be alive at the time - people who are already dead come judgement day have already been judged, right?).
having said that, i'm afraid i still have a few questions.
then does the world as we know it stop existing? is everyone either in heaven (having been 'for' God) or hell (if you were 'against' God) for ever? will any more 'people' be born / created after this judgement? do we still have physical bodies and 'free will'?
and i was going to ask
"what happens if we go and defy God again after that? does the whole scenario have to be replayed?"
but i guess Legend is right that that should be separate thread...

  
Legend
Member (Idle past 5005 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 27 of 238 (316965)
06-02-2006 8:04 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by iano
05-29-2006 11:39 AM


forgiveness ?
iano writes:
Do you need forgiveness Legend?
the kind of 'forgiveness' that your God is offering I have no need or desire for.
Reminds me of a film I saw once, where this chap lost the colombian druglord's money. The druglord said: 'allright I forgive you, I just want you to stuff this bag full of cocaine up your arse and fly to New York for me, will you, that's a good boy'
that's kind of how your God works, isn't it?
only instead of stuffing a bag of coke up one's arse, one has to believe that Jesus died on the cross to take their sins away.
Forgiveness with a catch!

"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by iano, posted 05-29-2006 11:39 AM iano has not replied

  
Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5871 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 28 of 238 (316993)
06-02-2006 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by CK
05-29-2006 11:24 AM


Re: Allah is the man
Not only that, but there's no consistency in any of the theist interpretations of God. I mean, as an example Truthlover's god seems to be the loving, caring, warm father/mother-figure kind of deity, whereas iano's is a mean, petty, spiteful, little-kid-pulling-wings-off-flies kind of god who tortures people for fun. If the True Believers(tm) could get their collective acts together they might have a more compelling argument.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by CK, posted 05-29-2006 11:24 AM CK has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by jar, posted 06-02-2006 12:23 PM Quetzal has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 29 of 238 (317009)
06-02-2006 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Quetzal
06-02-2006 11:01 AM


Re: Allah is the man
One thing that I'd like to point out is that when it comes to something like GOD, not one of us Theists know what we are talking about. We may believe something very strongly, we may personally be very sure of our conclusions, but not one of us has a way to test the validity of our conclusions. The best that we can do is to try to express in our limited ways what it is we believe. We can try in our limted way to logically support what we believe, and that is then subject to the examination of others and they can decide whether what we outline makes any sense or not.
But even that can reference only the belief itself, and not the reality.
If GOD exists, She exits regardless of any evidence that It does not exist.
If GOD does not exist, the He does not exist regardless of any evidence that She does exist.
If GOD does exist, then any description of Her is but a Map and not the Territory itself.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Quetzal, posted 06-02-2006 11:01 AM Quetzal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Quetzal, posted 06-02-2006 12:38 PM jar has replied

  
Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5871 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 30 of 238 (317012)
06-02-2006 12:38 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by jar
06-02-2006 12:23 PM


Re: Allah is the man
If GOD does exist, then any description of Her is but a Map and not the Territory itself.
I understand that. However, the "maps" ya'll use are so different that it's like trying to use a map of El Salvador to navigate around Uzbekistan - might be a fun adventure, but you're likely to never get from Tashkent to Nukus.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by jar, posted 06-02-2006 12:23 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by jar, posted 06-02-2006 12:52 PM Quetzal has replied

  
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