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Author Topic:   What Does the Second Coming Entail?
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 31 of 238 (317021)
06-02-2006 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Quetzal
06-02-2006 12:38 PM


On selecting Maps
I understand that. However, the "maps" ya'll use are so different that it's like trying to use a map of El Salvador to navigate around Uzbekistan - might be a fun adventure, but you're likely to never get from Tashkent to Nukus.
I absolutely agree. What you find when you look at the maps is a collection of maps, the Theological equivalent of the Perry-Casteneda Maproom. There wil be new maps, old maps, accurate maps, inaccurate maps. Some will be more up to date than others, some will point to one goal, others to a different one, some will have detail, others just broad empty spaces with the legend "There be Dragons".
The job of selecting a map is not easy, and as with any map, the user must constantly test the map against the territory, and where the territory does not correspond to the map, trust reality, not the representation.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Quetzal, posted 06-02-2006 12:38 PM Quetzal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Quetzal, posted 06-02-2006 12:59 PM jar has replied

  
Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5872 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 32 of 238 (317023)
06-02-2006 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by jar
06-02-2006 12:52 PM


Re: On selecting Maps
Agreed, which was the problem I outlined. Maybe there should be a better GPS ("God Positioning System") than, say, the Bible?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by jar, posted 06-02-2006 12:52 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by jar, posted 06-02-2006 1:11 PM Quetzal has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 33 of 238 (317025)
06-02-2006 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Quetzal
06-02-2006 12:59 PM


Re: On selecting Maps
Maybe there should be a better GPS ("God Positioning System") than, say, the Bible?
Fortunately, GOD did just that, She gave us a record written by GOD Himself, the Universe we live in.
The Bible is but one of the Maps available, and it is a very old one. The Universe on the other hand is constantly updated as changes are made.
But there is always the issue of the map reader. Reading maps is something we all must learn, and as with any such effort, some folk will be better able to read the map than others. Some folk will also be better able to notice the differences between the Map and the Territory, while a few will trust the Map and try to drive across the washed out bridge reagardless of the signs posted saying "Bridge Out".

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Quetzal, posted 06-02-2006 12:59 PM Quetzal has replied

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Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5872 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 34 of 238 (317027)
06-02-2006 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by jar
06-02-2006 1:11 PM


Re: On selecting Maps
Damn. Out-analogied by an orangutan. I concede your point.

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GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 35 of 238 (317033)
06-02-2006 2:10 PM


Just a couple of thoughts about what has been written in this thread.
Very few people at the time of Christ recognized the first coming of Jesus. That generation were looking for something entirely different than the true nature of the incarnate Christ.
I would suggest that the Second Coming will be the same. I doubt that the nature of that event will be what most people expect. Whatever happens---happens. My guess is that it will be some catastrophic event that will end all of this.
It seems to me it’s off topic but there was also some discussion on the issue of salvation. CS Lewis writes this in The Great Divorce”.
“There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, ”Thy will be done’, and those to whom God says in the end, ”Thy will be done’. All that are in Hell choose it. Without the self-choice there could be no Hell. No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will ever miss it. Those who seek find. To those who knock it is opened.”

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 36 of 238 (317072)
06-02-2006 7:00 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by CK
05-29-2006 11:10 AM


Re: response makes no sense.
I'm even more baffled now - your christian god is still paying the price because 2000 years ago, he came down and got a avatar of his nailed to a piece of wood. The creator of the universe is still "paying" for that event?
Eternity = timeless. Time = seconds elapsing one after the other. If I sin now, he suffered in paying for it then - for it was known then that I would sin now and that I would come to him in order that he might pay for it. It raises the (useful) spectre of my sin now contributing to his pain then( not on-the-cross-physical pain but the spiritual pain of separation from his Father). The fact that I love and know that he suffered/suffers for me means that I listen to him when he tells me to avoid sinning. Not that he does this to avoid suffering he will take whatever I cause - but to avoid me having to live with me doing that to someone I love
For who likes causing a beloved to be punished?
He then invites you to the nightclub and when you get there, Bob says "boy this is an expensive nightclub - but hey let me show you how I care, I'll pay for you to get in". He then proceeds to take some money out of the cash-register and then makes a big show of putting it back in - he "pays" for you.
If you take the throw away "big show" bit then its not a bad analogy. It was his money he took out and put back in. It was his to take out (he can fill in a tab to say so and so make his accounts straight) and his to do with as he pleases. He could have done a dozen things and they would be all okay. But he pays for you to get in. And you enter. He is now down 1 x entry price. He gives you a gift of entry that is not by right yours.
Bob then spends all of his time reminding you that he paid for you to get into the nightclub. He also gets his friends to do the same. Bob says because of this, you should be grateful and do him favours. You all know that bob owns the nightclub and therefore actually hasn't paid anything at all and that he just took the money out of the till and then just put it back in.
This is were your analogy comes a little unstuck. Try this variation
Bob says "Welcome to the nightclub! Boy, am I glad you here for you will really like this! Now, I gotta go welcome some other guests so this is what I recommend you do. But if you don't fancy what I recommend then by all means ignore my advice. As the owner who knows this place inside out and as one who has a pretty good idea of the lay of the land I can point you to all the best bits. But don't worry - if you decide to do it your way and have too much beer and get sick on my carpet I won't kick you out of the club. Ever. For I was the one who invited you in. You simply took up the invite. If that creates problems for me then that is my problem. Okay you'll have a sick stomach but hey I didn't pour that beer down it did I? Let me look afer the sick on the carpet though will ya?.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by CK, posted 05-29-2006 11:10 AM CK has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 39 by Legend, posted 06-03-2006 4:41 AM iano has replied
 Message 40 by CK, posted 06-03-2006 8:03 AM iano has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 37 of 238 (317090)
06-02-2006 8:11 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by iano
06-02-2006 7:00 PM


Explaining Analogies (yet again)
iano writes:
He gives you a gift of entry that is not by right yours.
But it is he (the owner) and he alone who decides whether it is yours "by right". If he gives it to you, it is yours, by right. That's what a gift is.
It was his money he took out and put back in.
That's the part of the analogy (and the theology) that makes no sense.
The nightclub owner didn't take money out of the till and give it to you to spend however and wherever you chose. He made you a guest in his establishment. The money in the till is utterly irrelevant.
Similarly, God didn't give you the gift of eternal life to spend however and wherever you choose. He made you a guest in His home. The "payment" (Jesus' death) is utterly irrelevant.
Making a show of taking the money out and putting it back in is the same as God making a show of "killing Himself" for your sins. The nightclub owner wouldn't do that - he'd just say, "Come in as my guest." Similarly, God wouldn't put on such a silly charade - He'd just say, "Come in as my guest."
As for the "second coming", that would be like the nightclub owner calling you the next day to ask if you had a good time, if you got home okay and when you can come back and be his guest again.

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This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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RickJB
Member (Idle past 4990 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


Message 38 of 238 (317161)
06-03-2006 4:01 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by ringo
06-02-2006 8:11 PM


Re: Explaining Analogies (yet again)
ringo writes:
Making a show of taking the money out and putting it back in is the same as God making a show of "killing Himself" for your sins.
Umm, yes I think that was the point! CK was talking of Jesus - God sends an avatar of himself to be killed for the "sins" of mankind, only to resurrect him!
Doesn't sound like much of a sacrifice to me...

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Legend
Member (Idle past 5006 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 39 of 238 (317162)
06-03-2006 4:41 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by iano
06-02-2006 7:00 PM


still makes no sense.
iano writes:
Bob says "Welcome to the nightclub! Boy, am I glad you here for you will really like this! Now, I gotta go welcome some other guests so this is what I recommend you do. But if you don't fancy what I recommend then by all means ignore my advice. As the owner who knows this place inside out and as one who has a pretty good idea of the lay of the land I can point you to all the best bits. But don't worry - if you decide to do it your way and have too much beer and get sick on my carpet I won't kick you out of the club. Ever. For I was the one who invited you in. You simply took up the invite. If that creates problems for me then that is my problem. Okay you'll have a sick stomach but hey I didn't pour that beer down it did I? Let me look afer the sick on the carpet though will ya?.
you forgot the part where Bob says: "you've been sick on my carpet but I forgive you as long as you, your children and your children's children accept my cousin Dave as their personal Lord and Saviour."

"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by iano, posted 06-02-2006 7:00 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by iano, posted 06-03-2006 10:03 AM Legend has replied

  
CK
Member (Idle past 4127 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 40 of 238 (317174)
06-03-2006 8:03 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by iano
06-02-2006 7:00 PM


Sin as control
quote:
Eternity = timeless. Time = seconds elapsing one after the other. If I sin now, he suffered in paying for it then - for it was known then that I would sin now and that I would come to him in order that he might pay for it. It raises the (useful) spectre of my sin now contributing to his pain then( not on-the-cross-physical pain but the spiritual pain of separation from his Father). The fact that I love and know that he suffered/suffers for me means that I listen to him when he tells me to avoid sinning. Not that he does this to avoid suffering he will take whatever I cause - but to avoid me having to live with me doing that to someone I love
So Sin is a control mechanism by your God?
It still makes little or no sense - your God seems a very odd character, he makes a flawed creation which has the end result of causing him constant pain. All this he must have known before he started.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by iano, posted 06-02-2006 7:00 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by iano, posted 06-03-2006 11:48 AM CK has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 41 of 238 (317184)
06-03-2006 10:03 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by Legend
06-03-2006 4:41 AM


Re: still makes no sense.
you forgot the part where Bob says: "you've been sick on my carpet but I forgive you as long as you, your children and your children's children accept my cousin Dave as their personal Lord and Saviour."
Hardly. Long before this point you were invited to the night club. That you arrived at the door means that you wanted to gain entry. You might have been willing to pay the price of admission but you find that the price is way too expensive for you. You can't afford to take up the invite. Turning away, for you know that if you can't pay you have no right of entry, you hear Bob call you back and open the till and pay your for your entry. You can refuse his generous offer. Or accept it. If you don't accept it the the money hasn't paid for anything, nothing has changed. If you do accept it then that money has paid for you.
Getting sick on his carpet later doesn't mean you'll be chucked out. There are no laws of the nightclub which can be invoked so as to throw a person out. Not getting sick, not getting into a fight. Bob doesn't do bouncers. Legally, the price of admission has been paid so you have as much right to be there as anyone else.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Legend, posted 06-03-2006 4:41 AM Legend has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Legend, posted 06-03-2006 11:42 AM iano has replied
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Legend
Member (Idle past 5006 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 42 of 238 (317189)
06-03-2006 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by iano
06-03-2006 10:03 AM


Re: still makes no sense.
iano writes:
Turning away, for you know that if you can't pay you have no right of entry, you hear Bob call you back and open the till and pay your for your entry. You can refuse his generous offer. Or accept it.
so you're saying I can walk in the club any time I like, right ? No catches ?
iano writes:
Getting sick on his carpet later doesn't mean you'll be chucked out.....Legally, the price of admission has been paid so you have as much right to be there as anyone else.
now I'm really confused! If the price has been paid and I have the right to be there then where does Jesus fit in ?
Why is Paul / John banging on about Jesus as the 'Paschal lamb' ?
Why is Paul saying that ONLY through faith in Jesus can one be justified ?
if the price has been paid and we have the right to be in the club then there's no need to believe that Jesus died for our sins and all that, right ?
You've either changed your views radically in the last few hours or your analogy is fundamentally flawed.
Edited by Legend, : edited for spelling / grammar.

"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by iano, posted 06-03-2006 10:03 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 47 by iano, posted 06-03-2006 1:23 PM Legend has replied
 Message 50 by lfen, posted 06-03-2006 3:23 PM Legend has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 43 of 238 (317191)
06-03-2006 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by CK
06-03-2006 8:03 AM


Re: Sin as control
Eternity = timeless. Time = seconds elapsing one after the other. If I sin now, he suffered in paying for it then - for it was known then that I would sin now and that I would come to him in order that he might pay for it. It raises the (useful) spectre of my sin now contributing to his pain then (not on-the-cross-physical pain but the spiritual pain of separation from his Father).The fact that I love him and know that he suffered/suffers for me means that I listen to him when he tells me to avoid sinning. Not that he does this to avoid suffering - he will take whatever suffering I cause him - but to avoid me having to live with me doing that to someone I love
CK writes:
So Sin is a control mechanism by your God?
My sin has a part to play. He uses love to 'get me to conform to the way he wants me to be'. And I don't have to conform if I don't want to. If I do I do so willingly - because I love him and accept that he knows what is right for me.
Sin is used by me to run away from him. He shows me MY sin so that I will run back. The decision to allow him to deal with me so was made by me 5 years ago. I agreed with his terms and conditions. He can do whatever he likes with me as far as I am concerned. Its called accepting his Lordship over me.
Either one can be a slave to sin or a slave to love. Its not like rejecting God means you are free of slavery
It still makes little or no sense - your God seems a very odd character, he makes a flawed creation which has the end result of causing him constant pain. All this he must have known before he started.
You can assert his making a flawed creation til the cows comes home CK. That he knew it would become so does not mean he made it so. Yamaha made a perfect Fazer 1000. Iano, the one who has dominion over it made it into a scuffed Fazer 1000 about 6 weeks ago when he choose to enter a corner at a speed higher than he knew was sensible. I knew there were consequences for acting outside the limits of my tyres grip. I didn't know exactly what they would be. As it was I got off lightly. Adam didn't
Edited by iano, : format

This message is a reply to:
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sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 44 of 238 (317192)
06-03-2006 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by Legend
06-03-2006 11:42 AM


Re: still makes no sense.
Legend
now I'm really confused!
Now you got it.See how much better your life is now that you have given up on clarity of thought for the irreplaceable joy of befuddlement? Party on, dude!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Legend, posted 06-03-2006 11:42 AM Legend has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 45 of 238 (317193)
06-03-2006 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by iano
06-03-2006 10:03 AM


Re: still makes no sense.
iano writes:
Legally, the price of admission has been paid so you have as much right to be there as anyone else.
The price of admission has not been "paid" - it has been waived. The flim-flamery of pretending to "pay" for you is what makes no sense.
The issue is hospitality.
Consider the prodigal son: he turned away from his father and it didn't work out. He returned home, hoping for a handout, but instead was received as the proverbial "long-lost son". Similarly, the nightclub patron expected to have to pay, but he received more than he expected - his entire evening was comped. The father/owner freely gave what was not expected.
Compare:
quote:
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
Notice that Jesus will "receive" us unto Himself - much like the prodigal son's father, or the nightclub owner. The "second coming" is not necessarily about Jesus moving from A to B. It's more about us being together, as the family He wants us to be.

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

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