What Does the Second Coming Entail?

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You can assert his making a flawed creation til the cows comes home CK. That he knew it would become so does not mean he made it so. Yamaha made a perfect Fazer 1000. Iano, the one who has dominion over it made it into a scuffed Fazer 1000 about 6 weeks ago when he choose to enter a corner at a speed higher than he knew was sensible. I knew there were consequences for acting outside the limits of my tyres grip. I didn't know exactly what they would be. As it was I got off lightly. Adam didn't

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You example is flawed - for it to work, the chairman of yamaha should doubleover in pain when you came off your bike and also he would have to have know in advance, that building the bike and it being sold to you would have resulted in that pain in advance.You keep trying to shift this to Adam and I fail to see where Adam ties into creation.

Unless accepting Bobs offer constitutes a catch for you then no, there are no catches. Of course, to wind back a little, you do have to know where this nightclub is before you even get to worrying about the finer details such as this. Wanting to go to this nightclub is an essential start. Finding ones way there is the next step. Jesus gives the currency validity. If the owner paid with Monopoly money then that is not true payment. The currency in this nightclub must be legal tender. It must be acceptable to the nightclubs auditors (God as justice) as a means of paying for our entry. The currency is Jesus Righteousness (or right standing before God) and there is plenty in the kitty. No matter how much sin needs to be paid for there is enough to go round.The right for you to enter has been paid for but if the right isn't exercised then the money just sits there waiting in a vacuum. It has unrealised potential. Remember, the owner has taken it out of the till and put it back. In a legal sense, nothing has actually happened in fact until you are in the nightclub in which case the money has done what the owner assigned it to do. The owner paying for your right to enter doesn't mean the owner can drag you in off the street!At at some point the time will come when the nightclub is ready to kick off. Some won't have wanted to come at all, some will have wanted to but cannot find their way there. Some will stand outside but won't accept the offer and come in. Then the doors will close and have a lock called death put in place. Bob will do a quick recce of the till and find that there are far more funds than there are people in the nightclub. "I know what - I'll take all these unclaimed payments, the potential of which was never realised and kick off the night by buying a round of drinks for everyone who came"They are his funds and if he wants to reassign them for some other use at any time then that is his right. The sacrifice of a lamb in OT times was the valid currency for the temporal covering of sin. Jesus as Paschal lamb is being declared by Paul et al as valid currency for full and final payment of sins. Because that is the way it is. Faith in Jesus is something which is necessary but it is supplied to us by God. We couldn't work it up for ourselves. God attempts to put a desire for this faith into us too (although we won't recognise what it is until after we come and can see things more clearly). All we can do is reject his attempt to do this. To refuse his offer into the nightclub.

I'm accepting his offer. Can I come in now? what's that got to do with me? if the owner paid and gave me the right to come in the club, why should I care if it's true payment or not.If he chooses to cheat himself and pay with fake money, that's his problem. As far as I'm concerned he said he paid and gave me the right to get in. The rest is his concern not mine. Again, the owner pays so it's his responsibility to make sure he uses legal tender, not mine.If the auditors find that he cheated himself for me to get in the club, why is it my fault ?! ok.....so... ?? maybe he should invest it in real estate or something. fine , it's just that he said that he's paid the price and I have the right to come in, no catches, remember ?are you now saying that this isn't quite true ?!let's recap:
* Bob wants me to come to his club and he's paid the price.
* Bob says I have the right to be in his club.
* Bob says I can come in the club anytime I like, no catches.so, can I come in Bob's club or can't I ?!

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

If you have accepted his offer then thats it. Your in. Welcome Legend(Just out of curiousity but if you don't want to say thats fine. What did you say to him in your accepting of his offer?)

I think he is just stating the obvious. The club is something that is imagined. Let's say some one told me that I had an uncle by marriage who was very rich and would be leaving me a million dollars sometime in the future.If I didn't believe this claim then my life would go on as it is. But lets say the person who told me this was a good preacher full of cunning sales techniques and supplied my imagination with all the good things I could buy when this event happened. They get me excited about how much better my life will be and I get caught up in the excitement. Now I'm the heir of a million dollars. The only thing that has changed and it's also the neccessary thing is that I believe that this uncle exists and that I will inherit.This is the sales pitch of Paul and all those who followed him. If you don't believe in the nightclub then it doesn't exist. All you have to do is believe the story and you can be excited and happy about this great night club you will go to one day. It's a pyramid scheme in a way in that you are encouraged to get others to believe in this nightclub.It's all about belief. If you believe it you will be very happy. You won't even be very distressed about what happens to your family and friends who don't believe it. You'll do your best but then you put your faith in the greatest thing you can imagine that it will all be just.Of course there are some other imaginary nightclubs, the competition, and they have good advertising, so you have to debunk their claims and assert that they are all fronts for the underworld and if you join those clubs the mafia will beat you up and torture you.Now I think religion can be more serious than that but the brand of evangelism that Iano engages in reduces everything to the lowest common denominator of get happy, believe what I'm selling you.lfen

I said: "I don't, for a minute, believe that the loving, caring creator of everything would have to kill his immortal son to appease himself and stop himself from letting me rot in hell, but I try to do good and help those around me whenever I can. Can I come in ? "He said: "You wouldn't like Hell, not since St Paul stopped doing his faith-healing act to the demons annual jamboree and the Popes started arguing between them about the meaning of filioque. Here in Heaven, however, we have non-stop live football on telly and an unending supply of Haagen-Das (Carl Sagan just loves cookie-dough flavour). We'll be waiting for you."

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

spot on, Ifen.that's why iano gets so excited at the possibility of a conversion whilst he fails to explain to me (and, I suspect, to himself too) how the whole thing works in any meaningful way.he's bought in the dream, he just can't let go now or he'll have to go back into living a 'normal' life again where he'll be Average Joe, like the rest of us, and not a millionaire-heir like you very poignantly said.

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

In our little analogy this would see you standing in the queue poking around in your wallet for the price of admission. Pay up yourself or accept his currency. Dems d'optionsYou don't have to understand how it is that his currency works. But you do have to accept his invite.

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but I try to do good and help those around me whenever I can. Can I come in ?

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iano writes:

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In our little analogy this would see you standing in the queue poking around in your wallet for the price of admission. Pay up yourself or accept his currency. Dems d'options

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hold on, all along you've been saying that he's paid the price for me to come in.Well, has he or hasn't he ?your little analogy seems to be twisting and changing all the time.what do you mean accepting his 'currency' ?? that doesn't even make sense. It's his club, he's paying, he's receiving, there's nothing for me to accept or reject with regard to the currency, what he chooses to pay himself with (?) is his problem not mine.Once again, if he's paid the price and invited me in, what's stopping me from coming in?it's a simple question ian, why can't you give a simple answer ?Edited by Legend, : edited for spelling

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

He has. The money to pay for your admission is sitting in the till as we speak. But paying the price of your admission himself is only one aspect of things. You bring up another which I'll jump to now Well you see, this nightclub is positioned on the top floor of a giant skyscraper and there are no lifts or stairways. And you clean forgot to bring a helicoptor with you. He is inviting you in and assures you that if you only accept his invite he will bring you in. You don't have to walk in or go get a helicopter - for that would be a hoop you have to get through yourself. He doesn't do hoopsYou only have to accept his invite. "Yes I want to come in"Do you accept his invite? It was CK's little analogy not mine

we're going round in circles, I've answered this before, yes I accept.you've done more ducking & diving than a duck attempting to break the world's free-diving record.I hate quoting myself but here goes : well, what is it?

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

baby Jesus must be going through his third box of Kleenex by now.

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

You accept? You say the words "I accept his invite" but they are only words. I asked "do you accept his invite" - a quite different thing. For you to accept his invite you would have to believe that an invite exists. No one can accept something they do not believe to be the case. That is not acceptance that is delusion. And if you believe the invite exists you would also believe- that Bob has a nightclub up there at the top floor (which you have never seen)
- that the club is impossibly expensive necessitating his paying with his own money for your entry. And you've never even met the guy.
- that the money he used to pay was valid and legal currency not Monopoly money
- that he would somehow be able to get you up the top of this skyscraper without stairs or lifts
- that Bob exists at allIt seems that in order to accept these things one has to first believe things such as these. Do you believe these things Legend? Not without reason Legend.

I'm missing something here. As I understand it a person who is deluded believes that what they believe is in fact the case. That it's not the case is what makes it a delusion, so how is that not acceptance? I pretty sure Legend knows that lfen

FAS, I'm prepared to believe that. Irrelevant. He's invited me in. He's paid the price. Can I come in now ? His problem, not mine. He's invited me in. He's paid the price. Can I come in now ? Ofcourse he can otherwise why the hell he's invited me ??. He is all-powerful Bob, after all! FAS. I'm prepared to believe that.iano, you haven't done a 360 and now claim that there is a catch, have you ? well, what is it?

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."