Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
5 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,815 Year: 3,072/9,624 Month: 917/1,588 Week: 100/223 Day: 11/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Does The Flood Add up?
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 91 of 298 (316643)
05-31-2006 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Randy
05-31-2006 9:54 AM


Re: A small point
Now consider that in YEC mythology Noah is only 9 generations from Adam and Eve, His wife is a direct descendant of Adam and Eve and his Sons and Sons wives are direct descendants of Adam and Eve. All of these people can supposedly trace their ancestors back about 1,600 years to Adam and Eve and no one else. So how does any genetic diversity arise from the further inbreeding of people who are already totally inbred. I have heard YECs claim that the genetic diversity of the human species comes from the wives of Noah's sons but like virtually everything else about YEC and the global flood story, this makes no sense at all. It certainly does not "add up".
there's a problem with bible's origins mythology, as hinted at above. the "where did noah's daughters-in-law come from?" is probably meant to echo the classic "where did cain's wife come from?" question.
as i suggested (i think) in the thread about reconciling gen 1 and 2, genesis 2/3/4 seems to represent a very localized focus in the creation mythology, while genesis 1 represents a much wider scope. the author of genesis 2/3/4 seems unconcerned about the presence of other people in the world besides adam, eve, cain, abel, and eventually seth. when cain kills abel, he is worried that someone else will kill him. who?
while it seems that adam is only the father of a specific group of people, the naming of eve presents a problem. her name in hebrew is "chavah" which is related causally to "chay" the word for life. chavah is named because she causes all life -- the mother of mankind.
but one thing, ironically, that genesis DOES do is try to explain genetic diversity. being a book that records traditional stories of origins, the hebrew stories of the origins of other cultures are included to. there are stories for very many neighboring cultures, actually. although the region seems to stick to northern africa, the med. sea, the orient (turkey, etc), and the middle east. this is the "world" that genesis seems concerned with.
Edited by arachnophilia, : typoe.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Randy, posted 05-31-2006 9:54 AM Randy has not replied

Damouse
Member (Idle past 4905 days)
Posts: 215
From: Brookfield, Wisconsin
Joined: 12-18-2005


Message 92 of 298 (316712)
05-31-2006 8:09 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by arachnophilia
05-31-2006 4:23 AM


Re: A small point
noah's three sons are shem (father of the semitic people), ham (egyptians) and japheth (mediterranean).
(noah's descendants are actually a good indication of the area the bible claims the flood covered, as "eretz" is quite ambiguous)
The bible claims the flood had covered?! I was under the impression that the flood covered the entire globe. If the water rose high enough to cover mountains, then it automatically would have flown all over the world, so then the whole world must have been covered.
His three sons are quite genetically luck to be all completly different, and their children not being balanced by their wives, or inbreeding with their relatives from another brother. This still leaves out eastern asians, the blond-haired blue-eyed northern europeans, and the very dark-skinned africans (egyptians don't really look like central or southern africans. Even so, you would still have to argue that minorities like the american indians or the aboriginals native to austrailia must have evolved from the first three groups.
Edited by Damouse, : No reason given.

I believe in God, I just call it Nature

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by arachnophilia, posted 05-31-2006 4:23 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by arachnophilia, posted 05-31-2006 9:38 PM Damouse has replied
 Message 225 by Faith, posted 07-03-2006 5:18 AM Damouse has not replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 93 of 298 (316734)
05-31-2006 9:38 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by Damouse
05-31-2006 8:09 PM


Re: A small point
The bible claims the flood had covered?! I was under the impression that the flood covered the entire globe.
that's because you don't know much (or any) hebrew. the word used to describe what the flood covered is which means "country" (as in countryside, area) or "nation" or "land" (as in ground). as i was just telling people in an unrelated thread, means planet.
If the water rose high enough to cover mountains, then it automatically would have flown all over the world, so then the whole world must have been covered.
why?
His three sons are quite genetically luck to be all completly different, and their children not being balanced by their wives, or inbreeding with their relatives from another brother. This still leaves out eastern asians, the blond-haired blue-eyed northern europeans, and the very dark-skinned africans (egyptians don't really look like central or southern africans. Even so, you would still have to argue that minorities like the american indians or the aboriginals native to austrailia must have evolved from the first three roups.
none of these groups are present in the bible, except for MAYBE the africans. (where sheba was is debatable, but actually irrelevent)
the bible is a judeo-centric book. this shouldn't be a suprise. they are concerned with their own culture, and their relations with their neighbors.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Damouse, posted 05-31-2006 8:09 PM Damouse has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by Damouse, posted 06-01-2006 8:01 PM arachnophilia has replied
 Message 98 by Quetzal, posted 06-02-2006 9:56 AM arachnophilia has replied

Damouse
Member (Idle past 4905 days)
Posts: 215
From: Brookfield, Wisconsin
Joined: 12-18-2005


Message 94 of 298 (316919)
06-01-2006 8:01 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by arachnophilia
05-31-2006 9:38 PM


Re: A small point
If the water rose high enough to cover mountains, then it automatically would have flown all over the world, so then the whole world must have been covered.
why?
Why not?
Floodwater levels out obviously. If it covered a/the mountain, it must have been at a higher altitude then said mountain. If the water is at that altitude, then everything under that altitude (assuming theres no damming effect, which in this case is not there) is under water. Most uf the earth is not at the altitude of mountains, so therefor the whole world was covered, or at least the parts that have human population.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by arachnophilia, posted 05-31-2006 9:38 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by arachnophilia, posted 06-01-2006 8:33 PM Damouse has not replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 95 of 298 (316925)
06-01-2006 8:33 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by Damouse
06-01-2006 8:01 PM


Re: A small point
assuming theres no damming effect
assuming.
also assuming that said mountains are indeed higher than your average plain.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Damouse, posted 06-01-2006 8:01 PM Damouse has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by Gracchus, posted 06-02-2006 2:28 AM arachnophilia has replied

Gracchus
Member (Idle past 4200 days)
Posts: 5
From: CA USA
Joined: 10-24-2002


Message 96 of 298 (316946)
06-02-2006 2:28 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by arachnophilia
06-01-2006 8:33 PM


Re: A small point
So the mountain is no higher than the plain? Are we to assume that the valley is no lower? Makes cartography kind of simple,doesn't it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by arachnophilia, posted 06-01-2006 8:33 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by arachnophilia, posted 06-02-2006 2:48 AM Gracchus has not replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 97 of 298 (316949)
06-02-2006 2:48 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by Gracchus
06-02-2006 2:28 AM


Re: A small point
i was just pointing out that such was the assumption.
there is good reason, of course, to read the flood story as claiming that the flood covered the entire planet. for one, god seeks to destroy all mankind. a localized flood makes no sense here, unless mankind is also localized.
the point, rather, is that we can tell what exactly was included in the ancient hebrew concept of the world. they had no idea about australian aboriginies, or native americas, or south africans, or chinese.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Gracchus, posted 06-02-2006 2:28 AM Gracchus has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by Damouse, posted 06-03-2006 2:36 PM arachnophilia has replied

Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5872 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 98 of 298 (316982)
06-02-2006 9:56 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by arachnophilia
05-31-2006 9:38 PM


An even smaller point
where sheba was is debatable
Actually, not really. Most of the sources I've read indicate Saba (Sheba) was a south Arabian Peninsula kingdom fairly well-known in the ancient world. Its capitol was Ma'rib in what is now Yemen, a major oasis and caravan stop on the spice route from Oman. The Sabaeans ruled from around the 10th to around the 3rd Centuries BCE. The kingdom finally collapsed after its control of the trade routes fell apart and following conquest by the Himyarite Empire.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by arachnophilia, posted 05-31-2006 9:38 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by arachnophilia, posted 06-06-2006 9:55 AM Quetzal has not replied

Damouse
Member (Idle past 4905 days)
Posts: 215
From: Brookfield, Wisconsin
Joined: 12-18-2005


Message 99 of 298 (317232)
06-03-2006 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by arachnophilia
06-02-2006 2:48 AM


Re: A small point
the point, rather, is that we can tell what exactly was included in the ancient hebrew concept of the world. they had no idea about australian aboriginies, or native americas, or south africans, or chinese.
yet nowadays the bible has been adapted to mean whatever is needed. A paradigm shift has occured, i agree, but now the bible is being molded to the new frame of referance. i.e., "listen to the church, we have the bible, to source of truth." Fitting an old glove on a new coat....

-I believe in God, I just call it Nature
-One man with an imaginary friend is insane. a Million men with an imaginary friend is a religion.
-People must often be reminded that the bible did not arrive as a fax from heaven; it was written by men.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by arachnophilia, posted 06-02-2006 2:48 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by arachnophilia, posted 06-06-2006 9:56 AM Damouse has not replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 100 of 298 (318253)
06-06-2006 9:55 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by Quetzal
06-02-2006 9:56 AM


Re: An even smaller point
Actually, not really. Most of the sources I've read indicate Saba (Sheba) was a south Arabian Peninsula kingdom fairly well-known in the ancient world. Its capitol was Ma'rib in what is now Yemen, a major oasis and caravan stop on the spice route from Oman. The Sabaeans ruled from around the 10th to around the 3rd Centuries BCE. The kingdom finally collapsed after its control of the trade routes fell apart and following conquest by the Himyarite Empire.
that is the common thought, yes.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Quetzal, posted 06-02-2006 9:56 AM Quetzal has not replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 101 of 298 (318254)
06-06-2006 9:56 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by Damouse
06-03-2006 2:36 PM


Re: A small point
yet nowadays the bible has been adapted to mean whatever is needed.
i am far, far more interested in the intent of the authors, editors, and redactors.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Damouse, posted 06-03-2006 2:36 PM Damouse has not replied

Crue Knight
Inactive Member


Message 102 of 298 (318912)
06-07-2006 8:44 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Teggy
08-08-2005 6:18 AM


quote:
1) Since Hinduism is the oldest organized religion in the world, Mustn't have Noah taken two Hindus with him as well? (I'm sure there were many more religions than just 2 at this time in history as well.
I dont know the history of Hinduism too well, but a possibility is story telling. Noah's sons could have told their sons about a certain false religion and they could have retold the story until they believed it (but the religion wouldn't be exactly the same of coarse). Or it may be possible that one or more of his sons turned away from God and worshiped other gods that they saw before the flood.
quote:
2)How would you explain the Native American existence in the western Hemisphere? Given Noah and his fellow human surivors restarted mankinds journey in the middle east 4,000 years ago, and Native Americans came over the landbridge into America about 10,000 years ago, do these numbers even add up? These next numbers even weaken my previous challenge seeing as the dates are younger: There are remnants of civilization s in south America over 3,000 years old! So The only "Flood happened" explanation to this would be, immediately after the flood, human populations rose extremely quick, and somehow in 20 generations, one branch successfuly migrated to South America from the Middle East, in about 600 years, and another group fully populated China, India, Africa, and Europe through many splits. The timeframe for this expansion (considering the size of the S.A. Cities and Cultures of that age) just don't fit. Needless to mention the Migration to SA has alot of evidence of occuring about 10,000 years ago, even before Mankind was supposed to exist by creation terms.
In Genesis 10:25 it says "And unto Eber were born two sons: the name of one was Peleg; for in his days was the earth divided; and his brother's name was Joktan.". This occured 2,000 yrs after the flood. According to the calendar of the Bible, Peleg was born in 3153 B.C. and died in 2914 B.C.
In the year 3114 B.C., when Peleg was thirty-nine years old, the earth's continental division must have occured.
Archaeologists who study the ancient civilization of Maya puzzle about the date 3114 B.C., because the Mayan calendar started in 3114 B.C.
So the great cataclysmic event must have separated them from the "main" continent to central america where we know it now, and then they started their calendar.
http://www.timehasanend.org/.../en_time_has_an_end_ch05.html
Look under the subtitle "the Earth is Divided". You can also read other parts of it at Time Has An End

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Teggy, posted 08-08-2005 6:18 AM Teggy has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by Coragyps, posted 06-07-2006 9:08 PM Crue Knight has replied
 Message 106 by arachnophilia, posted 06-08-2006 10:01 AM Crue Knight has not replied
 Message 110 by jar, posted 06-08-2006 11:17 AM Crue Knight has not replied
 Message 201 by Jon, posted 06-29-2006 2:28 AM Crue Knight has not replied

Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 103 of 298 (318913)
06-07-2006 9:08 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by Crue Knight
06-07-2006 8:44 PM


This occured 2,000 yrs after the flood.
Not according to the Bibles I can find.
Genesis 11:10These are the generations of Shem: Shem was an hundred years old, and begat Arphaxad two years after the flood:
11And Shem lived after he begat Arphaxad five hundred years, and begat sons and daughters.
12And Arphaxad lived five and thirty years, and begat Salah:
13And Arphaxad lived after he begat Salah four hundred and three years, and begat sons and daughters.
14And Salah lived thirty years, and begat Eber:
15And Salah lived after he begat Eber four hundred and three years, and begat sons and daughters.
16And Eber lived four and thirty years, and begat Peleg:
17And Eber lived after he begat Peleg four hundred and thirty years, and begat sons and daughters.
18And Peleg lived thirty years, and begat Reu:
19And Peleg lived after he begat Reu two hundred and nine years, and begat sons and daughters.
Four generations. 340 years maximum. 2+35+30+34+239.
How many Mayans were there, again? And how many inhabitants of the Americas?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Crue Knight, posted 06-07-2006 8:44 PM Crue Knight has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by Crue Knight, posted 06-08-2006 12:28 AM Coragyps has not replied

Crue Knight
Inactive Member


Message 104 of 298 (318958)
06-08-2006 12:28 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by Coragyps
06-07-2006 9:08 PM


quote:
Not according to the Bibles I can find.
What does your Bibles tell you?
quote:
Four generations. 340 years maximum. 2+35+30+34+239.
How many Mayans were there, again? And how many inhabitants of the Americas?
Remember, when the Bible says someone "begat" someone, it doesnt mean it is a father-son relationship. It could be a grandfather, great-grandfather ect.
See this link for some examples:
http://www.timehasanend.org/..._time_has_an_end_ch03.html#02
Edited by Crue Knight, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by Coragyps, posted 06-07-2006 9:08 PM Coragyps has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by ringo, posted 06-08-2006 12:54 AM Crue Knight has not replied
 Message 107 by arachnophilia, posted 06-08-2006 10:20 AM Crue Knight has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 105 of 298 (318962)
06-08-2006 12:54 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by Crue Knight
06-08-2006 12:28 AM


Crue Knight writes:
Remember, when the Bible says someone "begat" someone, it doesnt mean it is a father-son relationship. It could be a grandfather, great-grandfather ect.
Wouldn't that screw up all of the chronologies? How can you tell that "Peleg was born in 3153 B.C."?
quote:
Gen 10:24 And Arphaxad begot Salah; and Salah begot Eber.
Was Salah Eber's father or grandfather or great-grandfather? Was Arphaxad Salah's father or grandfather or great-grandfather? How many generations are "missing? How many years?
And what are you using for your "anchor date", from which your dates are calculated?

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by Crue Knight, posted 06-08-2006 12:28 AM Crue Knight has not replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024