but not for the translators. have a look at the concordance entry for "pierced" in that verse: Bible Search and Study Tools - Blue Letter Biblenotice something?

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AV - dig 12, make 2, pierce 1, open 1; 16

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it's the ONLY place that word is ever translated "pierced." what's even more weird is that this word is not even in the orignal hebrew at all!it says, in hebrew (kethiv):

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, ’—

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ka'ari yadi v'rageli

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like lions at my hands and my feet

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the kjv not only translates the qere (MARGINAL NOTE) instead of the kethiv (actual text), but mistranslates it.

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here are some quotes by god calling his own actionas "evil." i will continue to post these references, as people continue to assert the blasphemous claim that god is incapable of something:

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Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

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Exd 32:14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

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Pro 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

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2Ki 21:12 Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Behold, I am bringing such evil upon Jerusalem and Judah, that whosoever heareth of it, both his ears shall tingle.

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Jer 11:11 Therefore thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will bring evil upon them, which they shall not be able to escape; and though they shall cry unto me, I will not hearken unto them.

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Jer 11:17 For the LORD of hosts, that planted thee, hath pronounced evil against thee, for the evil of the house of Israel and of the house of Judah, which they have done against themselves to provoke me to anger in offering incense unto Baal.

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Jer 18:11 Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.

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Jer 21:10 For I have set my face against this city for evil, and not for good, saith the LORD: it shall be given into the hand of the king of Babylon, and he shall burn it with fire.

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Jer 23:12 Wherefore their way shall be unto them as slippery ways in the darkness: they shall be driven on, and fall therein: for I will bring evil upon them, even the year of their visitation, saith the LORD.

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Eze 6:10 And they shall know that I am the LORD, and that I have not said in vain that I would do this evil unto them.

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Mic 2:3 Therefore thus saith the LORD; Behold, against this family do I devise an evil, from which ye shall not remove your necks; neither shall ye go haughtily: for this time is evil.

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Amo 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

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god sets rules for us, not for himself. god can do whatever he pleases. tautological. no one can do anything against their nature. if they did something, evidently it is within their nature to do it.

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"I am light and I remove my light. What has been left behind? Darkenss. That which I, by removing myself have 'created'. It is my light to do with as I will. I am under no obligation to shine it anywhere in particular. It is not evil not to shine it.""I call to a man through conscience in order to work against sin working in him. When I silence my call those men will follow the call of sin. I have no obligation to call them - so it is not evil to stop calling them."God being light and good dispels darkness and evil - that which occurs when his light and goodness are removed. And he can use evil to achieve his plan simply by knowing when to permit it to have its way. Using evil to achieve a good is not evil. Its genius.Edited by iano, : No reason given.

*blink* *blinks again*.I've seen some doublespeak on those boards but that surely is one of the finest examples I've every seen. This in particular is wonderful: Is this another example of "oh the bible is literal except em..for those bits which are clearly not meant to be literal".

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Jer 11:11 Therefore thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will bring evil upon them, which they shall not be able to escape; and though they shall cry unto me, I will not hearken unto them.

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The mind boggles at the mental gymastics that are required to turn that into

Doublespeak? Hardly. Man wants to do evil for he is a slave to sin. God holds him back from total free expression then wallop! - God lets go his hold for a moment and man rushes headlong towards evil - and goes and crucifies Jesus. Mission accomplished. Utilising mans/satans evil to work for good.Elsewhere, the purpose of the law is not that sinful man is expected to obey it. He cannot obey it as he is. So man breaks the law time after time. God can reveal to man that he is a sinner due to the very fact that man breaks the law (sins). The more man sins the stronger the conviction that he is a sinner is when that fact is revealed to him. And so a man can be saved (for salvation requires us to be convicted (or convinced) that we are sinners). Another case of using evil (our own sin) to achieve a good (man being saved from his sin)Like I said: GeniusEdited by iano, : attribute quote

keen and regular viewers will notice that Iano is keen to shift this side conversation from what the bible explictly says about god to a different conversation about "Man", "man's sin" and "man's action".What conclusions can we drawn from the fact that he does seems unwilling to engage with the actual discussion about the text of his own religious book? So what about rest of you? Do you see 5 fingers where there are only 4?

I know I suggested recently that I was happy for you to keep on splashing banner headlines across the page whilst I would decide on the column inches underneath (your sub-editor to my Editor as it were). But I didn't mean you to take it literally!God brings evil. Whats the problem with that? God removes his restraint and a young car driver goes out and gets pissed, speeds through the city and runs a red light - ploughing into a pedestrian. God has brought anothers evil to bear on the pedestrian.Where's the problem? Its a pretty mis-guided Christian who doesn't. That's not to say that one has to struggle everywhere. May I presume you do not struggle anywhere with your worldview?

THERE ARE FOUR LIGHTS!

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Not really. The Christian life may be difficult, but the Christian message is simple.Those who struggle with the Bible do so because their dogmatic preconceptions just don't fit the words. Hence, the incredible contortions that we see here every day.

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that's great. my source is the bible.what's your's?

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the bible is not all message, but even the message can be confusing at times. trust me, i struggle with my own faith and the bible all the bible. yes, but we all do this to some degree. the question is whether the bible wins, or not.but there are other points of struggle too. sometimes, getting it to make sense (with itself) is an issue. sometimes, justifying the position of later books against the earlier ones is too.

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yes, doublespeak. above are many examples of god calling his own actions evil. that's god, and god's actions. not man, and not man's actions.are you calling god a liar?

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The key to understanding a communication is to filter out what is not "message". Once the central theme is clear, the details can be brought in to amplify it.The "fundie" approach, which I was refering to, is the opposite: Look at the communication as a whole and try to patch every detail together into a "coherent" whole.That is where iano finds his struggle, it seems. Since it was never intended to be a coherent whole, his attempts to make it so are inevitably futile.

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no, i think that's actually switched. the fundamentalists have a message in mind, and try to fit the details to their preconcieved idea of what the message is. there are ways to look at the bible as a whole, and some are indeed valid. we can see trends of belief, and though, and the evolution of literature in a culture over a few hundred years. but none are as coherent as the fundies make out -- they would rather run the bible through their food processors on "puree" and then flavor the goop anyway they please, and call it a smoothie.it is, as it turns out, the detail that do not fit the message they want to see.

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That's what I said (or tried to say ). They want to put the message in instead of taking it out.(Am I to blame for steering this thread off-topic yet again? )

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