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Author Topic:   In defense of nihilism
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 254 of 306 (269217)
12-14-2005 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 243 by iano
12-13-2005 1:33 PM


Re: God's game
Okay, lets call it a test.
It's also a very unfair test. How are we supposed to know if God exists or not? Because of some ancient scribblings of Hebrew goatherders?
This message has been edited by robinrohan, 12-14-2005 10:47 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by iano, posted 12-13-2005 1:33 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 255 by iano, posted 12-14-2005 12:50 PM robinrohan has replied
 Message 257 by iano, posted 12-14-2005 1:20 PM robinrohan has not replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 256 of 306 (269246)
12-14-2005 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 255 by iano
12-14-2005 12:50 PM


Re: God's game
Not believing the Bible to be his word is not a wrong answer
I thought you said the Bible was "evidence," but nevermind.
Your argument seems to be that because we have a sense of right and wrong, therefore God exists. Is that your argument?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by iano, posted 12-14-2005 12:50 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 258 by iano, posted 12-14-2005 1:29 PM robinrohan has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 259 of 306 (269256)
12-14-2005 1:50 PM
Reply to: Message 258 by iano
12-14-2005 1:29 PM


Re: God's game
I say there is no proof of God for a person to whom God hasn't revealed himself.
That sounds like a Catch-22 to me. There's no proof that God exists until you believe that He does exist, and then and only then does He provide proof. But you need rationally to have some evidence to begin with to have any reason to believe in God. But He won't give you the evidence until you believe in Him.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by iano, posted 12-14-2005 1:29 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 260 by Faith, posted 12-14-2005 2:08 PM robinrohan has replied
 Message 265 by iano, posted 12-15-2005 5:28 AM robinrohan has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 261 of 306 (269272)
12-14-2005 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 260 by Faith
12-14-2005 2:08 PM


Re: God's game
It's always a start to begin to doubt yourself and consider that maybe there's something to it. But if you just can't give the slightest credence to a bunch of goatherders, nobody's forcing you.
It's always a start to begin to doubt your religion and consider that maybe there's something to that doubt. But if you can't give the slightest credence to a bunch of scientists, or whoever, nobody's forcing you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by Faith, posted 12-14-2005 2:08 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 262 by Faith, posted 12-14-2005 3:01 PM robinrohan has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 263 of 306 (269443)
12-14-2005 8:35 PM
Reply to: Message 262 by Faith
12-14-2005 3:01 PM


Re: God's game
They can't see God so they call that proof that He doesn't exist, but all it means is that they haven't had their spiritual eyes opened.
Well, I suppose such a religious belief is based on some intense personal experience that one has which will never convince someone else unless he has a similar experience.
I don't see any evidence of an objective-- of a non-personal-- nature that such a Being exists. I've given my reasons more or less throughout this thread--the seemingly accidental nature of life, etc.
iano seems to think that one's conscience is evidence. I'm of the belief, despite Holmes' disagreement, that we have developed a moral faculty like we have developed a mathematical faculty. And just as we have to accept certain assumptions in geometry, we do the same with morals (for one cannot prove logically that a given action is right or wrong). My interpretation of iano's ideas is that he thinks if you feel something deeply then that's a sign of God working on you. Or something like that.
This message has been edited by robinrohan, 12-14-2005 07:36 PM
This message has been edited by robinrohan, 12-14-2005 07:37 PM

"And from water we made all living things."-- The Quran

This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by Faith, posted 12-14-2005 3:01 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 264 by Faith, posted 12-15-2005 2:29 AM robinrohan has not replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 271 of 306 (269661)
12-15-2005 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 265 by iano
12-15-2005 5:28 AM


Catch-22
It has all the hallmarks of a catch-22. But God is very good as resolving catch-22's. Caught in the crossfire by the pharisees who hauled a woman caught in adultery before him, he was asked, "the law says this woman should be stoned - what do you say?" Jesus seemingly had two potential answers:
"Stone her according to the law" his powerbase - a ministry based on love and forgiveness - which held crowds captive to him and protected him would have dissolved. His protection gone he could have been picked off and killed
"ignore the law - don't stone her" Blasphemy. Penalty for blasphemy? Stoning.
Catch-22. Jesus replied "Let he who has not sinned cast the first stone. The mob melted away.
This doesn't strike me as a Catch-22. A Catch-22 has no solution.
In the novel "Catch-22," the central Catch--22 was that a pilot could be taken off combat duty if he could prove that he was insane. But the fact that you wanted to be taken off combat duty was proof that you were sane. So you could never ask to be taken off duty.
Would you want God to be true Robin?
Are you asking me if I want for God to exist? That would depend on the nature of the god. I don't want a god to exist that sends me to Hell because I don't believe in Him. That would be an irrational, monstrous God, it seems to me.
This message has been edited by robinrohan, 12-15-2005 11:30 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by iano, posted 12-15-2005 5:28 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 272 by iano, posted 12-15-2005 1:48 PM robinrohan has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 273 of 306 (269685)
12-15-2005 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 272 by iano
12-15-2005 1:48 PM


Re: Catch-22
God didn't put us in this situation. Adam did.
That hardly seems fair. I'm going to Hell because Adam sinned?
That's comparable to sending me to prison becuase my great, great, great grandfather committed murder in 1789.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 272 by iano, posted 12-15-2005 1:48 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 274 by iano, posted 12-16-2005 5:20 AM robinrohan has not replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 289 of 306 (319076)
06-08-2006 12:26 PM


ck
Nihilism (as I use the term, perhaps eccentrically) is a certain view about the human condition. Briefly, it can be summarized with the idea that human life has no "formal purpose." The formal purpose is the purpose for which something is made. The formal purpose of a hammer, for example, is to drive nails. You could use it for some other purpose, such as knocking someone in the head, but that would not be its formal purpose.
Human beings have no formal purpose, assuming no god. They were made by nature, and nature had nothing "in mind" when it made them since nature has no mind. We are just here, hanging about. Formally speaking, we are useless.
Edited by robinrohan, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 290 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-08-2006 12:42 PM robinrohan has replied
 Message 292 by CK, posted 06-08-2006 4:12 PM robinrohan has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 291 of 306 (319187)
06-08-2006 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 290 by New Cat's Eye
06-08-2006 12:42 PM


Re: ck
Not only do I not agree with the idea, I really dislike it. We might as well all go kill ourselves as there's no point in us being here (other than maybe some of us like being here). It just seems to remove some of the flare of living when there's no point.
It's not necesarily negative that we have no formal purpose. It's just that, whether negative or positive, we don't have one. We make up purposes of our own, of course. Often they change. Someone's purpose at age 20 might be quite different from his purpose at age 35.
Using the hammer to knock someone in the head might be compared to our subjective or personal purposes. The only way we might have a formal purpose is if we were made by a being rather than nature. Some might say, "I was made by my parents, not nature." My response to that would be that our parents were the assembly line workers. The designer, Nature, is back in the office.
Edited by robinrohan, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 290 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-08-2006 12:42 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 296 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-08-2006 4:38 PM robinrohan has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 293 of 306 (319192)
06-08-2006 4:17 PM
Reply to: Message 292 by CK
06-08-2006 4:12 PM


Re: ck
Let me start at the start - have you ever being a believer? in a god? gods?
No, never. I was raised by my Dad who never brought the subject up at all. I did go to midnight mass once with my Mom, but it was in Latin and I couldn't understand it. What I recall most were the pretty girls in the hats sitting just ahead of me. They were beauties.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 292 by CK, posted 06-08-2006 4:12 PM CK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 294 by CK, posted 06-08-2006 4:22 PM robinrohan has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 295 of 306 (319200)
06-08-2006 4:35 PM
Reply to: Message 294 by CK
06-08-2006 4:22 PM


Re: ck
So when do you think you first started to think in a serious manner "what's out there/what's not out there?"
I think when I went off to college, age 18. I got very interested in philosophy and almost majored in it, but I liked writing so much I went with Lit.
In my twenties, I called myself an "aesthete," but then I decided that sounded effeminate, remindful of Oscar Wilde or someone like that, so I changed it to "nihilist," which has a rugged masculine ring to it. But it's basically the same idea, in another form.
So I really haven't changed at all, in all that time. I'm 57.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 294 by CK, posted 06-08-2006 4:22 PM CK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 302 by CK, posted 06-08-2006 4:59 PM robinrohan has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 297 of 306 (319204)
06-08-2006 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 296 by New Cat's Eye
06-08-2006 4:38 PM


You're welcome to chat. He just asked about it, and so I addressed the post to him.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 296 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-08-2006 4:38 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 301 of 306 (319210)
06-08-2006 4:57 PM
Reply to: Message 300 by CK
06-08-2006 4:54 PM


Re: Admin input required - near end of thread
Good stuff, CK.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 300 by CK, posted 06-08-2006 4:54 PM CK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 303 by CK, posted 06-08-2006 5:02 PM robinrohan has not replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 305 of 306 (319217)
06-08-2006 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 302 by CK
06-08-2006 4:59 PM


Re: ck
I notice that you identify yourself as a "tentative" nihilist - why are you tentative - is it because you think it's impossible for the human mind to know for certain or are you considering "other options"? such as christianity?
I don't know if it's impossible or not to know. I have a certain belief in Logic. (My attempts at logic have been treated with contempt on this board). But I keep thinking about it, trying to figure it out. Obviously, I don't know for sure. The apparent accidental nature of life leads to me believe that it's all accidental.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 302 by CK, posted 06-08-2006 4:59 PM CK has not replied

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