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Author Topic:   Evolution Logic
Someone who cares
Member (Idle past 5869 days)
Posts: 192
Joined: 06-06-2006


Message 151 of 302 (319382)
06-08-2006 11:05 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by crashfrog
06-08-2006 10:36 PM


Re: Great example
I think you meant "fish have remained fish."
Yes, thank you, I fixed that. You know, it's not easy sitting here for hours replying so many times, hurridly too. I mean, since I've started debating here, this thread grew by several pages! In about 24 hr!
But, yeah. Here's the thing - there's more different breeds of dogs now than before. There's more different species of monkey now than before. There's more families of fish now than before.
There's more different kinds of mammals now than before. More different kinds of plants. More different kinds of everything. That's the definition, and proof, of evolution. Evolution is not one organism changing into another. It's populations of species giving rise to new species. "Mammal" used to encompass a single species. Now it encompasses thousands. There used to be one kind of insect. Now there are millions.
That's evolution. And when we see new species arise, even now, that's observing evolution in action.
No, that is not macroevolution. That is variations within a kind. Yes, I believe that originally, all dog species probably came from one dog type, but that's still dogs! Not like they evolved into a different creature! Same with other creatures. This is just variations within a kind.
And you still haven't answered my question. Instead, you're reasoning circularly - your proof that evolution can't happen is because there's this barrier. But your proof that the barrier exists is your assertion that evolution can't happen.
I do believe I have already addressed the barrier issue, maybe after your post.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by crashfrog, posted 06-08-2006 10:36 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by crashfrog, posted 06-08-2006 11:30 PM Someone who cares has replied

Someone who cares
Member (Idle past 5869 days)
Posts: 192
Joined: 06-06-2006


Message 152 of 302 (319383)
06-08-2006 11:07 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by Coragyps
06-08-2006 10:36 PM


I referred you to chickens with feathers on their legs, where their ancestors had scales/scutes/? in that position. There ya go.
But this is just a variation that can happen in chickens. It's not a reptilian scale evolving into a bird feather.

"If you’re living like there is no God you’d better be right!" - Unknown

This message is a reply to:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1585 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 153 of 302 (319390)
06-08-2006 11:30 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by Someone who cares
06-08-2006 11:05 PM


Re: Great example
No, that is not macroevolution. That is variations within a kind.
One kind gives rise to several kinds, but each of those kinds is part of the original kind. It's hierarcheal, do you see? Kinds contain kinds. We use the term "taxa", though, or sometimes "clade."
Yes, I believe that originally, all dog species probably came from one dog type, but that's still dogs! Not like they evolved into a different creature!
Eventuallly, dogs will give rise to a different creature; but that creature will still be a dog. The dog "kind", that you recognize, will give rise to new kinds, but those kinds will still be part of the "dog kind." Just as the first mammal gave rise to many different kinds of creatures that are all still mammals. Just as the first vertebrate gave rise to many, many different kinds of creatures, all of which are still vertebrates.
Evolution doesn't predict that the decendant of dogs will not be dogs. They're be dogs, but they'll be something else, too, just as humans are both mammals and humans at the same time.
This isn't magic or mysticism, this is the imprecision of describing a hierarcheal concept in linear language.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by Someone who cares, posted 06-08-2006 11:05 PM Someone who cares has replied

Replies to this message:
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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5967 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 154 of 302 (319395)
06-09-2006 12:00 AM
Reply to: Message 105 by Someone who cares
06-08-2006 7:52 PM


Re: Great example
Our Lord wan't kidding about sending us among wolves my friend. i'm going to have to be more careful.
Can any of you provide references showing an increase in genetic information durring cell division or mutations? I know that my sources are not readable for you and you won't waste your time on such spimple simon quackery. So perhaps you could just provide an instance to the contrary but remember... don't cut and paste!

Any biters in the stream?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Someone who cares, posted 06-08-2006 7:52 PM Someone who cares has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by jar, posted 06-09-2006 12:09 AM Rob has replied
 Message 156 by lfen, posted 06-09-2006 12:12 AM Rob has replied

jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 155 of 302 (319398)
06-09-2006 12:09 AM
Reply to: Message 154 by Rob
06-09-2006 12:00 AM


Re: Great example
Can any of you provide references showing an increase in genetic information durring cell division or mutations?
Can you tell me whether ACT, CGA, TAC or CAG has more information?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by Rob, posted 06-09-2006 12:00 AM Rob has replied

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lfen
Member (Idle past 4796 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 156 of 302 (319399)
06-09-2006 12:12 AM
Reply to: Message 154 by Rob
06-09-2006 12:00 AM


Re: Great example
Can any of you provide references showing an increase in genetic information durring cell division or mutations?
You'd have to define "genetic information". I don't think geneticist use that term.
Are you asking about things like fusing of chromosomes? Or extra chromosomes like XXY or such?
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by Rob, posted 06-09-2006 12:00 AM Rob has replied

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 Message 157 by Rob, posted 06-09-2006 12:39 AM lfen has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5967 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 157 of 302 (319402)
06-09-2006 12:39 AM
Reply to: Message 156 by lfen
06-09-2006 12:12 AM


Re: Great example
Lol

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by lfen, posted 06-09-2006 12:12 AM lfen has replied

Replies to this message:
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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5967 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 158 of 302 (319404)
06-09-2006 12:43 AM
Reply to: Message 155 by jar
06-09-2006 12:09 AM


Re: Great example
Can you tell me whether ACT, CGA, TAC or CAG has more information?
Well, I'd have to say that they all have the same amount of information...
Can you tell me whether ACT has more or less information than say... ATCGAACTGAC?
That's what I'm talking about...
A bacteria doesn't have 3 billion characters in it's genome like you do... How'd we get from on to the other??? That would be evolution.
It would be nice to see ACT evolve to TGCA. Just a litle is all I'm looking for. Got any references? I do, even if they're stupid to you...
Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

Any biters in the stream?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by jar, posted 06-09-2006 12:09 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by jar, posted 06-09-2006 1:19 AM Rob has replied

lfen
Member (Idle past 4796 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 159 of 302 (319406)
06-09-2006 12:50 AM
Reply to: Message 157 by Rob
06-09-2006 12:39 AM


Re: Great example
Okay, total brain lapse on my part. I'll plead fatigue and let it go at that as I can't actually recall what passed through my mind at that moment. I can almost recall it but it keeps slipping away from me. I'm off to bed. Hopefully by the weekind I'll be more coherent.
lfen

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 Message 157 by Rob, posted 06-09-2006 12:39 AM Rob has replied

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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5967 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 160 of 302 (319407)
06-09-2006 12:55 AM
Reply to: Message 159 by lfen
06-09-2006 12:50 AM


Re: Great example
It's allright. We all do it!

This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 161 of 302 (319408)
06-09-2006 1:19 AM
Reply to: Message 158 by Rob
06-09-2006 12:43 AM


on pairs and tells
Can you tell me whether ACT has more or less information than say... ATCGAACTGAC?
Nope, can't until you can define what information is.
A bacteria doesn't have 3 billion characters in it's genome like you do...
That's close. IIRC the human genome is about 2.9 billion pairs while maize is only 2.5 billion base pair. Chimps have about 2.8 billion base pairs. The lungfish genome is about 35 times the size of the human genome and Amoeba dubia has more than 600 billion, Amoeba proteus more than 290 billion base pairs and the common toad, Bufo bufo, have more than 6.9 billion base pairs.
The point is, the length of a genome really doesn't mean a whole lot.
As to seeing evolution in the code such as you suggest, they happen all the time. It's likely that you carry 6-8 such mutations yourself right this minute and that you yourself will have about 30 such mutations during your lifetime.
Edited by jar, : change subtitle

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by Rob, posted 06-09-2006 12:43 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
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kuresu
Member (Idle past 2631 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 162 of 302 (319409)
06-09-2006 1:57 AM
Reply to: Message 105 by Someone who cares
06-08-2006 7:52 PM


Someone Who Cares . . .about getting things right
I'm replying to this post for one reason--this quote:
maybe you don't know anything about biology?
No, actually, I know a little more about biology than other science topics.
Which, by your paper on evolution, means you don't know that much. Let me begin. I read your paper. I dug out quite a few quotes, which I will explain to you why what you said was wrong.
A:
evolutionists believe that the dolphins’ ancestors were pigs, cattle, or buffalo
wrong. Whales are thought to have come from a more hippo like species, if I remember correctly.
B:
Aside from animals, we have insects as well.
This is from where you are explaining the fossil inconsistencies. Since when were insects not animals? I do believe their classification is Animalia, Arthropoda, Uniramia (the original Insecta). That's Kingdom, Phylum, Class. We are Animalia, Chordata, Mammalia, Primata, Hominidae, Homo, sapiens.
C:
Neanderthal man was found to be pure human, whose brain was deformed by arthritis.
[6] Neanderthal had arthritis and was crippled, that is why he would have walked stooped,
but not because his whole civilization was like that,
and not because he came from a monkey, he was a human.
I was unaware the Neanderthalensis had a civilization. I knew they had a culture, but not civilization. An entire race of cripples? I don't think it was arthritis that did this. In fact, they did not stoop, but walked properly.
D:
but it is now known that this size of a brain is the size of an average European person’s brain
Wow, okay. This is in reference to Homo erectus, everyone. Their brain volume varied within this range--750 - 1250 cc
. That's 3/4 of a liter to 1 and 1/4 liters. The modern human's brain volume is--a good chunk more, with less than one percent of the total human population reaching just under a liter in volume. Most of us have a brain capacity of almost 1.5 liters. Are you saying that the average European is stupid? Because if you are, I take offense to that (hey, I am half swede, so . . .).
E:
So Homo Erectus is not hominid, he is just human
And your point is? Humans are hominids. Hominid = The common name for humans and their ancestors, members of the family Hominidae. It consists of the genus Australopithecus and the genus Homo. Since the species in question is a Homo, then he is a hominid. Or perhaps you meant hominiod, of which we and erectus also belong. BY the way, homo is latin for "man" (I'm pulling this from the translation of Homo sapiens being "wise man" or "knowing man", and because their are different species in Homo)
F:
Modern Homo Sapiens, Neanderthal, and older Homo Sapiens and Homo Erectus, all lived at the same time, they all lived together
An accepted timeline for the Homo genus and when each species was alive is this: Hominid Species (if an admin can link this, I don't know how, please do).
As you can clearly see (if you look at the picture) Homo erectus was gone by the time we were on the scene. Neanderthalnesis was just about gone, and questions are being raised as to whether or not they were still around in Europe by the time we were there.
G:
Cro Magnon Man is not in any way non human. It was only thought to be a hominid, because of cave drawings that were found and were thought to be something primitive
That double negative is throwing me for a loop. This is continuing in your vein of humans not being hominids. Which is showed just above to be wrong.
H:
A Homo Erectus, called Rhodesia Man, had tooth decay, this is something that primitive man would not have
Can you tell me why a primitive man, with no form of toothbrushes, toothpaste, or flossing would not have tooth decay?
I:
The monkey, the donkey, the chicken, the garter snake, or the butter bean? Hmmm? How about non of those?
This is in a new paragraph in your paper, and it comes from Henry Morris saying who we are related to. And the quote is your answer. Actually, we are related to all of them, though some quite distantly (the butter bean being the most distantly related).
J:
a characteristic no monkey or any other animal has. We also have intelligence, a complex spoken language,
and ethical values. [20] So how is this? When humans evolved, morality evolved as well
If you want to argue this point, I recommend taking it to my thread, titled about morality and charity and how they fit into the evolutionary paradigm. Point is, they do. Also, we are not the only animal with intelligence, language, or altruism.
K:
Because evolution is unguided, how would evolution make a creature know to evolve a stomach and teeth for the specific foods,
and the right size of a mouth for the sizes of fruits and vegetables?
Or hands the perfect size and shape to grasp fruits, vegetables, branches, etc?
Or legs, with the right bones, muscles, ligaments, to allow us to walk on flat ground, rocky plains, or to climb a mountain, or a tree?
Or lungs to utilize the oxygen in our environment? Or anything else
This one might be long. The first part of that quote makes me think of this show called "Way of the Master", which was quite ridiculus with trying to disprove evolution by using this argument. Actually, this answer will be short. Reason being, in order to explain why it is wrong, I need to explain all of evolution and how it works--something which you seem to not understand by this and many other statements you made (or make for the moment). You are right in that evolution can't tell a creature to evolve the right stuff for the right things, but this is not proof against evolution. They get the right stuff for the right things through natural selection, which isn't all that unguided. We can discuss this at a later point.
L:
For example, the eye of a human is very similar to the eye of an octopus
Well blow me down and shiver me timbers, I never knew this! or wait, are you possibly wrong again? Me thinks it's the latter choice. They are similar in that they are eyes, and the interpret light stimulation, however, as far as the mechanisms they operate off of, the octupus eye is much different (like how each type of eye focuses). It's equivalent to saying a bird and bat wing are similar. Oh yeah, for those who couldn't tell, this part of the paper is trying to explain why things have similar things without using common ancestry, and in this case, it's God using the same design over and over.
M:
Yet no one is claiming that they had a common ancestor! Why not?!?
The continuation of the last quote. Actually, we do claim that we have a common ancestor with octupi. In fact, we claim that all living organisms today have a common ancestor (or at the very most a few common ancestors).
Natural selection is the mechanism by which one kind of animal or plant is supposed to evolve into another one.
Not that great a definition of natural selection, so I might want to introduce it now, as it makes sense here.
First of, NS (natural selection) applies to all living organsisms, not just animals and plants.
Secondly, this is how NS operates.
Let's take a population of deer. The habitat can support 1000 deer.
Now then, more offspring are created than the habitat can support. Lets says, for simplicity's sake, that the parents are all gone.
And let's say they made 3000 fawns. We now have 3000 fawns competing for those 1000 spots. The 1000 that make it to sexual maturity are the ones who get to reproduce, and they pass their genes off to their offspring. The reason they are in the top 1000 is becuase they were the most "fit"--best adapted to their environment.
The other 2000 of the second generation (parents are first generation, then the offspring, offsprings offspring not included) die before they can pass off their genes, or they move out of the habitat. Either way, those 2000 were not "fit" enough, and do not pass off thier genes in this population of deer.
Let's use a real world example, like Sickle Cell Anemia. It is generally a deletorius gene--that means it's bad. However, in regions in the world with a high incidence of malaria, it is no longer deleterious so long as the person with is not homozygous recessive. The normal, dominant condition is AA. The SCA condition is either Aa or aa. The last is what is known as homozygous recessive, and it kills you before the age of five, well before we reach sexual maturity. The heterozygous condition (Aa) is also deleterious, except in places with malaria.
Another fact to remember, malaria kills those without SCA much more easily, so they often do not reach sexual maturity.
THis means that the most "fit" are the ones with the heterozygous condition, becuase they survive to sexual maturity and procude more offspring than the others. And becuase the others are not passing their genes on, fewer and fewer are going to be AA or aa, until most of, if not all of, the population is Aa.
And if someone else can better explain this, please do, because I realize I'm not the best at explaining.
N:
Natural selection only gets rid of information and certain organisms, it doesn’t add information to the genetic code,
or new organisms into the world. But that is exactly what we would need to get a single cell or something even simpler,
to evolve into a human over time, great increases of information in the DNA
Do you know how many genes humans have? about 25,000, based off of the research done by the Human Genome Project. Do you know how many the common fruit fly, Drosophilia melanogaster, has? Something like twice as many. So does this mean that the fruit fly is more complex than man? Because that is what you are implying--you need more information for more complexity, and lo and behold, man has relatively few genes. I guess that means were pretty simple, huh?
O:
About 99.9% of mutations are neutral or harmful! They would only make the case worse for evolution by destroying the organism
Actually, it fits in perfectly with NS, as Darwin realized. Those that die before they can reproduce will not pass on these deletorius genes, and hence NS is verified, not falsified.
P:
Any mutations in other body cells do not pass on to offspring. So even IF a monkey did learn to walk upright,
its descendants wouldn’t walk upright
Mutations in somatic cells (body cells) will not make a monkey walk upright. In order to do that, the mutations would have to change the monkey's skeletal structure while it is living, as well as reposition the entrance of the spinal cord into the skull and doing a few other odds and ends, and no matter how much the transformers may look real, those sort of mutations aren't possible. Our bodies just can't reorient that quickly without being excrutiatingly painful as well as possibly deadly (for those who read everything in Metroid Prime, think back to what happened to the Space Pirates that tried to use Samus' morph ball--death).
Q:
For example, in order for food to get from our mouths to our stomachs, we need a tube connecting them. Or to breathe, we need not only lungs,
but also a nose or a mouth, and an expanding rib cage, and a diaphragm
.
Not quite true. Starfish empty their stomachs onto their food. Reptiles don't have diaphrams. Insects don't use thier mouths to breathe, and they don't have noses. many animals don't even have lungs. We might need them, but that doesn't mean that they don't work without those other parts or can't be used without the other parts.
R:
Besides, natural selection is supposed to only evolve that which is necessary for our survival.
So how did we obtain social skills, love, care, feeling sorrow for others, friendship, and other feelings and emotions?
How could those feelings and emotions, not necessary for survival, evolve!
Again, I refer you to the morality, charity, and evolution thread of mine to see why you are wrong. with this. Oh, and natural selection doesn't evolve anything, it is the mechanism by which organisms evolve. It's like saying that the computer monitor runs the computer, but it is actually the mechanism by which the computer displays graphic representations of data.
S:
but evolutionists say, that in the early history of the earth, life came from non-life. [29] What absurdity
And this disproves evolution how? Remember, there was no life, and then there was. Even if God made life, he still made it out of non-life--you know, the whole from the dust of the earth bit, from which you are made you shall return.
Biological evolution only starts when there is life present, it doesn't matter how said life arose.
T:
Take a plant cell, it should be simpler than an animal cell, right? Yet man still doesn’t fully understand how the chlorophyll converts solar energy into chemical energy!
Or, exactly how meiosis of the cell works
And this disproves evolution? Who said a plant cell had to be simpler, they could just as well be more complex. After all, they are our relatives (and the possible descendants of the animal kingdom, at any rate, they appear after animals do). If evolution is supposed to increase complexity, like you imply, then you contradict yourself. At any rate, we know fairly well how chlorophyll converts solar energy into chemical energy.
There are two photosytems, I and II. In each one, there are two types of chlorophyll, A and B. Chl. B surrounds A. Now then, when light hits photosystem II, it excites electrons in the photosystem. These are bounced around until they end up on the chlorophyll A molecule, which then throws it out of the photosystem. This electron passes through what is known as an electron transport chain, and something like 2 ATP is made. Then this electron enters photosystem I, bounces around until it gets to the A molecule in the center, it launched up again, and absorbed by (NADP?). But I'm too far ahead. Remember that first photosystem? Well, when that electron jumped out of it, it split water. This is possibly done by activating an enzyme or through the eletrical charge itself. Then you have 2Hsub2O yielding 2Hsub2 and Osub2. The Hydrogen is accepted by (NADP?) The oxygen will be incorporated into the Calvin Cycle, which makes the sugar molecules that provide the source for chemical energy, which is what the mitochondria does. The (NADP?) becomes NADPHsub2 at the end of all this, at which point it plays a role in the Calvin Cycle. Don't get me started on meiosis.
U:
Such as the fact that amino acids are destroyed by oxygen. So, in order for these “building blocks of life” to survive,
the early atmosphere of the earth would have to have been oxygen free. But then another problem arises, if there was no oxygen,
there would be no ozone layer. No ozone layer means that ultraviolet rays of the sun would reach the earth.
Then these ultraviolet rays of the sun would inevitably destroy any amino acids.
Therefore making the whole idea of amino acids living and joining to form a cell impossible!
Not too far off, but ultraviolet radiation is nothing more than alpha radiation, if I remember correctly. Alpha radiation can be stopped by a piece of paper. Water breaks up Ultraviolet radiation, so in a deeper pool of water, the amino acids would be quite safe from the UV radiation. Again, this doesn't disprove evolution.
V:
there are over 500 cases in the fossil record, where “simpler” organisms were found in “more recent” layers, then some “more advanced” organisms. [33]
Now evolution cannot account for this.
Actually, it can. Do you realize how many simple organisms there are on this planet today? They outnumber the complex ones by a lot. Simple ones can also be simplified. Also, what if they lived at the same time? You use this same argument to say that Homo sapiens lived at the same time as Homo erectus, and thus we didn't come from this "simple" man. Parent species don't have to die out after a speciation event.
X:
Another interesting observation, in many places of the earth, we find groups of fossils; meaning that the animals were fossilized in groups.
Now tell me, can evolution explain this?
No, evolution cannot. But paleontology can. Ever hear of Pompeii? That entire city was buried in a very short period of time (in less than an hour if I'm not mistaken), and everone in the city was preserved. This same phenomenon happens a lot with the fossil record, and a good thing to.
Y:
But that means we are degrading, losing the functioning of our organs.
But evolution requires just the opposite, upgrading, from a single cell to a human. So are we upgrading, degrading, or neither
Evolution does not require upgrading or degrading. (This one is refering to vestigial organs)
Z:
But this is not an example of evolution! This is an example of microevolution
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't your paper state that
quote:
There are two basic forms of evolution: microevolution, and macroevolution. Microevolution is just the variations within a kind of an organism
When trying to disprove something, or prove something, its best not to contradict yourself. It just doesn't add credibility to your argument. And unless I'm gravely mistaken, nothing I written here is a contradiction or one as big as the one you made in that paper.
AA:
No new information was added to the genetic code, as evolution would require in evolving a single cell to a human over time
I've answered this before. You know, about how humans actually have a small number of genes compared to simpler orgranisms, and how evolution doesn't require new information in the manner you mean.
BB:
If the time dates of evolutionists are true, the world would be overflowing with humans now. But that’s not the case
By that same logic, the world should be overflowing with visible bacteria (visible because there are so many). It's called the carrying capacity of the environment, that it, how many organisms the environment can support. And we have a tendency to increase that with our agricultural methods. That began ten-thousand years ago (roughly the time of the agricultural revolution). Before then, we were hunter-gatherers, and that lends itself towards smaller, village like or less numbers in the community. In fact, even with agricuture, the carrying capacity didn't increase too much, as evidenced by the native americans, with a few notable exceptions. It wasn't until mechanized farming that the capactiy wildly increased. And since then, we have grown exponentially in population. Again, not a disprove of evolution.
As a final note. WHy the focus of plants and animals? You really should have included all the kingdoms, and if you want, I can dig through your paper again for more wrong stuff. I jsut spent over two hours on this set of roughly 27 quotes, but I know of more mistakes you made in the paper, I just didn't feel like going through them all.
ABE:
I forgot to make my main point--that is, it is apparent that you don't know too much about the sciences--yet
Oh, and it's cool how the link is made automatically.
Edited by kuresu, : memory lapse

All a man's knowledge comes from his experiences

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Someone who cares, posted 06-08-2006 7:52 PM Someone who cares has replied

Replies to this message:
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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5967 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 163 of 302 (319410)
06-09-2006 1:57 AM
Reply to: Message 161 by jar
06-09-2006 1:19 AM


Re: on pairs and tells
Can you tell me whether a modern hand held computer has more information to perform differring functions, than an old hand held calculator?
I know it's just 1's and 0's, but doesn't the arrangement specify the function? And isn't that information non-periodic? And isn't that information meaningful to it's functions? And isn't it complex?
Information: Complex, Specified, non-periodic, meaningful text. (all definitions of information have these in common)
Examples of information: Telephone book
Bible
Software
Statistics (ask about this one)
Any spoken Language formed from simple characters into complex formulations and meaningful to communication.
It must be meaningful to something. DNA to life, spoken word for communication. Statistics to the knothead. Software to the computer.
Can you give an example of complex specified non-repeating, meaningful text, that is not produced by intelligence?

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 Message 161 by jar, posted 06-09-2006 1:19 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by kuresu, posted 06-09-2006 2:06 AM Rob has replied
 Message 169 by Percy, posted 06-09-2006 5:53 AM Rob has replied
 Message 173 by jar, posted 06-09-2006 9:31 AM Rob has replied

kuresu
Member (Idle past 2631 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 164 of 302 (319412)
06-09-2006 2:06 AM
Reply to: Message 163 by Rob
06-09-2006 1:57 AM


Re: on pairs and tells
yeah, the experiment done by Miller and Urey that produced amino acids and some RNA. This, and the ones that followed, mimic early-earth atmospheres, so this "language" can be created without intelligence. It also does it every day, when your body is replicating somatic or gametic cells. No intelligence involved, just a bunch of chemical reactions. Unless, of course, you feel that God has his hand in you insides moving everything around (now that would be an intersting image of God--one with an infinite number of arms to move an infinite number of things ).

All a man's knowledge comes from his experiences

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by Rob, posted 06-09-2006 1:57 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by Rob, posted 06-09-2006 2:13 AM kuresu has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5967 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 165 of 302 (319413)
06-09-2006 2:13 AM
Reply to: Message 164 by kuresu
06-09-2006 2:06 AM


Re: on pairs and tells
yeah, the experiment done by Miller and Urey that produced amino acids and some RNA. This, and the ones that followed, mimic early-earth atmospheres, so this "language" can be created without intelligence. It also does it every day, when your body is replicating somatic or gametic cells. No intelligence involved, just a bunch of chemical reactions. Unless, of course, you feel that God has his hand in you insides moving everything around (now that would be an intersting image of God--one with an infinite number of arms to move an infinite number of things ).
I see! So what your telling me, is that two intelligent agents created conditions, and manipulated matter, to produce an argument that it can happen without the influence of intelligent agents?
Not very intelligent...
And to your last point (oh boy) that is the great thing about an infinite God. Omnipotent, Omnipresent, and Omniscient. Not to mention infinitely living, invinitely JUST (which really aught to scare the pants off nitwits like us), and fortunately infinitely merciful to children playing with something as dangerous as pride! He surely showed control when he died for you while you spit on Him. Truely worthy of worship...
He 'is' truth, so please have some respect for it...
Edited by Rob, : omni what?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by kuresu, posted 06-09-2006 2:06 AM kuresu has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 167 by Wounded King, posted 06-09-2006 4:59 AM Rob has replied
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