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Author Topic:   What Does the Second Coming Entail?
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 181 of 238 (319688)
06-09-2006 8:09 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by ringo
06-09-2006 8:01 PM


That's a you and Phat gig. I'll leave him to it.
(And you can drop the snotty attitude, too. It doesn't impress me.)
Sorry Ringo, I wasn't intending to be insulting or snotty. You don't believe the Bible is the word of God - from previous discussion with you. And I have difficulty imagining what the point of discussing anything to do with it is, if it is not presumed to be so (if even for the sake of argument)
No offence intended. Its a genuine problem I have difficulty getting my head around

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by ringo, posted 06-09-2006 8:01 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by ringo, posted 06-09-2006 8:26 PM iano has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 182 of 238 (319690)
06-09-2006 8:10 PM
Reply to: Message 179 by iano
06-09-2006 7:52 PM


Re: Heil Ho, Heil Ho..its off to work we go
I don't get the logic Brian
Everyone is a sinner, so we should all be wiped out.
The question would be, why does God only wipe out only some sinners and not all of them?
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by iano, posted 06-09-2006 7:52 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by iano, posted 06-09-2006 8:14 PM Brian has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 183 of 238 (319693)
06-09-2006 8:14 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by Brian
06-09-2006 8:10 PM


Re: Heil Ho, Heil Ho..its off to work we go
We will all be wiped out. We all die don't we?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by Brian, posted 06-09-2006 8:10 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by Brian, posted 06-09-2006 8:17 PM iano has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 184 of 238 (319697)
06-09-2006 8:17 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by iano
06-09-2006 8:14 PM


Re: Heil Ho, Heil Ho..its off to work we go
But you said that God does the wiping out didnt you?
'Wiping out' is not something that I associate with a natural death.
We all die don't we?
Is that a physical or spiritual death
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by iano, posted 06-09-2006 8:14 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by iano, posted 06-09-2006 8:23 PM Brian has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 185 of 238 (319703)
06-09-2006 8:23 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by Brian
06-09-2006 8:17 PM


Re: Heil Ho, Heil Ho..its off to work we go
'Wiping out' is not something that I associate with a natural death.
Your perogative. "Natural death" is a human construct.
Is that a physical or spiritual death
Physical
We are all born spiritually dead. You can't kill something twice that I know of.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by Brian, posted 06-09-2006 8:17 PM Brian has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 186 of 238 (319704)
06-09-2006 8:26 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by iano
06-09-2006 8:09 PM


iano writes:
You don't believe the Bible is the word of God - from previous discussion with you.
I don't believe the word of iano is the word of God.
I have difficulty imagining what the point of discussing anything to do with it is, if it is not presumed to be so....
That would apply to almost everybody else around here as well as to me, wouldn't it?
(I think you're just scared of ol' Ringo. )

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by iano, posted 06-09-2006 8:09 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by iano, posted 06-09-2006 8:39 PM ringo has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 187 of 238 (319710)
06-09-2006 8:39 PM
Reply to: Message 186 by ringo
06-09-2006 8:26 PM


I don't believe the word of iano is the word of God
And rightly so. But neither do you believe the Bible is the word of God.
That would apply to almost everybody else around here as well as to me, wouldn't it?
Actually not. Most people here realise that if you want to talk about what the Bible says then you must presume (for the sake of argument) that it is the word of God. Like, you cannot use the Bible as a weapon against his attributes if you don't believe ( for the sake of argument) that what it says describes his attributes. Now can you?
I think you're just scared of ol' Ringo
I find you evasive and not very pleasant to discuss with for the reason given. You dodge and weave around the issue of the Bible being the word of God. One minute you quote from it as if what it says is true and the next moment you deny it is the word of God. You want it both ways. But you cannot have it both ways - in my view.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by ringo, posted 06-09-2006 8:26 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by ringo, posted 06-09-2006 8:53 PM iano has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 188 of 238 (319717)
06-09-2006 8:53 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by iano
06-09-2006 8:39 PM


iano writes:
You dodge and weave around the issue of the Bible being the word of God.
I'm trying to get you to discuss the issue - at least in the context of this topic. Who's dodging and weaving?
Never mind whether or not the Bible is the word-for-word of God, dictated in His own handwriting. People who can discuss it intelligently aren't that plentiful and people who are willing are even less so.
Stop running away. Either debate or get off the pot.

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by iano, posted 06-09-2006 8:39 PM iano has not replied

  
Legend
Member (Idle past 5006 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 189 of 238 (319874)
06-10-2006 4:01 AM
Reply to: Message 171 by iano
06-09-2006 7:28 PM


Still banging head against brick wall
iano writes:
As far as Hitler was concerned he was doing good. As far as we're concerned he was doing bad. Whose right?
iano also writes:
We have nothing however, to suppose evil in God causing his actions to be motivated by evil.
you're still not getting (dodging) it.
we have nothing to suppose evil in Hitler causing the Holocaust.
The only reason we brand Hitler as evil is because of what he did. For all we know his motivation might have been ultimately good. We still brand him evil though because of his actions.
iano writes:
In order to claim 'we' are you need to have a foundation on which to stand. What is it?
how about our godly attribute to tell good from evil ?
"And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil." (GENESIS 3:22)
so, we can tell good from evil like God does, we call God's actions evil , God himself calls his actions evil.
The only person / divine entity who doesn't think God does evil is .........[drumroll]........iano,
congratulations, you've won the 'only true Christian' award.

"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by iano, posted 06-09-2006 7:28 PM iano has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by CK, posted 06-10-2006 5:21 AM Legend has replied

  
CK
Member (Idle past 4128 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 190 of 238 (319881)
06-10-2006 5:21 AM
Reply to: Message 189 by Legend
06-10-2006 4:01 AM


Re: Still banging head against brick wall
legend writes:
congratulations, you've won the 'only true Christian' award.
Oh I'm so confused now! I thought people who were true christians were those who believed in a literal view of the bible, Iano clearly doesn't believe in a literal reading of the text and therefore is not a true christian! However many of us atheists DO believe in (strange as it sounds) taking the christian god at his word and therefore we must be true untrue true christians!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by Legend, posted 06-10-2006 4:01 AM Legend has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by Legend, posted 06-10-2006 9:54 AM CK has not replied

  
Legend
Member (Idle past 5006 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 191 of 238 (319916)
06-10-2006 9:54 AM
Reply to: Message 190 by CK
06-10-2006 5:21 AM


Re: Still banging head against brick wall
CK writes:
However many of us atheists DO believe in (strange as it sounds) taking the christian god at his word and therefore we must be true untrue true christians!
LOL! too right! maybe it should be called 'the untrue Christian paradox' or something.

"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by CK, posted 06-10-2006 5:21 AM CK has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 192 of 238 (320055)
06-10-2006 5:13 PM
Reply to: Message 169 by iano
06-09-2006 6:48 PM


Re: Good God!
Whatever gave you the impression that he wants to be followed?
i dunno. something about setting all kinds of rules and laws, and that whole bit about faith and salvation. somewhere in there.
How would you know either way if God can lie to you.
AH! tough question, isn't it?
You have faith? What the heck is faith - surely not another concept you extracted from a book you cannot believe is telling you the truth about anything.
this is a strange concept for many christian, i know.
but my faith is not based on a book.
You're cast adrift once you suppose evil eminates from God, Arach. You enter Alice in Wonderland land.
and yet, there it is in the bible, in black and white:
"I create evil."
you're one saying that's a lie -- not me.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by iano, posted 06-09-2006 6:48 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by ringo, posted 06-10-2006 6:01 PM arachnophilia has replied
 Message 195 by iano, posted 06-11-2006 2:36 PM arachnophilia has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 193 of 238 (320074)
06-10-2006 6:01 PM
Reply to: Message 192 by arachnophilia
06-10-2006 5:13 PM


Re: Good God!
arachnophilia writes:
How would you know either way if God can lie to you.
AH! tough question, isn't it?
Over the years, I have had several friends who were inveterate liars.
Would I trust them with my life? Yes. Would I trust them to never betray me? Yes. Would I trust them to help me when I needed them? Yes. Would I believe every story they told? No.
We were friends because over all the good outweighed the bad. (And chances are they "overlooked" some of my flaws, too. )
Similarly, even if God can lie (and even if that is perceived as a flaw), it is our over all relationship with Him that counts.

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by arachnophilia, posted 06-10-2006 5:13 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 194 by arachnophilia, posted 06-10-2006 9:34 PM ringo has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 194 of 238 (320261)
06-10-2006 9:34 PM
Reply to: Message 193 by ringo
06-10-2006 6:01 PM


Re: Good God!
as an aside point, "can" and "does" are very different words. god CAN lie. but DOES god lie?
and the question of whether the bible is truthful or not is a second, unrelated question, that iano is conflating with the issue.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by ringo, posted 06-10-2006 6:01 PM ringo has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 195 of 238 (320536)
06-11-2006 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 192 by arachnophilia
06-10-2006 5:13 PM


Re: Good God!
Whatever gave you the impression that he wants to be followed?
i dunno. something about setting all kinds of rules and laws, and that whole bit about faith and salvation. somewhere in there.
Who says there are any rules in fact? You believe a god who can lie to you?
How would you know either way if God can lie to you.
AH! tough question, isn't it?
More than tough I would suggest. You cannot know. You cannot trust what God says - can you?
but my faith is not based on a book
Based? One cannot base faith on anything if God is capable of lies.
and yet, there it is in the bible, in black and white: "I create evil." You're one saying that's a lie -- not me.
I'm not saying it is a lie. God creates evil that is true. On the other hand you are saying it is true that he creates evil. On what basis - given that you say God can lie? A lying God can lie about creating evil. Maybe God cannot create anything at all. There might not be anything such as evil at all - just moral relativism
Nope, it seems to me like you end up going in cicles when you suppose God can lie to you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by arachnophilia, posted 06-10-2006 5:13 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 196 by ringo, posted 06-11-2006 2:44 PM iano has replied
 Message 197 by CK, posted 06-11-2006 2:50 PM iano has replied
 Message 198 by arachnophilia, posted 06-11-2006 3:44 PM iano has replied

  
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