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Author Topic:   Evolutionary Adaptation
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 38 of 115 (319329)
06-08-2006 10:02 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Someone who cares
06-08-2006 9:49 PM


The code cannot be altered to allow changes that would start evolving new body parts or something.
Why not?
What prevents it from happening? What is the stopping mechanism?

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This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 50 of 115 (319723)
06-09-2006 9:02 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Someone who cares
06-08-2006 9:39 PM


And I am sorry to hear that you are a Creationist who believes in evolution.
What an arrogant, condescending and insulting thing to say.

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 Message 61 by Someone who cares, posted 06-09-2006 9:48 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 54 of 115 (319736)
06-09-2006 9:19 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Someone who cares
06-09-2006 8:56 PM


It's not a mechanism, it's the code. The genetic code of an organism,
In other words you don't have a clue.
... it contains information for cells, tissues, body parts that the organism already has, ...
Not quite. The genes that are assembled contain the code for making the organism that will be -- including any mutations that have occurred, either in the genes of the parents that are included, or in the process of DNA replication and assembly.
Some of these will be neutral mistakes that won't affect the growth of the new organism, some will be deadly and cause a new organism to die before it matures, and some will have some minor benefit to the individual in the environment it will live in.
It will have evolved from it's parents. All species are in transition this way.
...it doesn't have code for NEW cells or tissues or body parts, that it never had.
Once more, your repeated assertion is NOT evidence of any such restriction on the evolution of organisms. This is still just more of the same argument from incredulity and ignorance.
Any time a section of genetic code is copied there can be mistakes, some of those mistakes include duplicating areas of code so that the recipient has two (or more) copies -- one that it then uses for normal growth and one that can evolve to different features. There is nothing to prevent this kind of change in species over time from happening.
Do you know what is special about the hoof of a horse that cannot be explained just by the fusing of foot bones into a single toe supporting shank?

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This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 65 of 115 (319761)
06-09-2006 9:57 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Someone who cares
06-09-2006 9:47 PM


...instead of standing tall for the truth?
The way you do by insulting others, and posting misrepresentations of the truth on your website?
At least he is honest in his belief eh?
Enjoy.

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 67 of 115 (319764)
06-09-2006 10:01 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Someone who cares
06-09-2006 9:48 PM


Insults -- yes.
I was actually feeling pity for the person ...
No, you were feeling superior, therefore you could "pity" him. That is where the arrogance comes in.
And yes it was insulting. You think you have a better understanding?
And btw this is now insult #3 you have issued -- you think he needs to be pitied?
Please.
Edited by RAZD, : another insult.

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This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 72 of 115 (319774)
06-09-2006 10:09 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by Someone who cares
06-09-2006 9:55 PM


No, in other words, there is no specific barrier mechanism which controls it.
So there is nothing that prevents it.
but where did the code come from? THE PARENTS!
And when the code of the offspring is different from the code of either parent where did that come from? The parents with mutation. Thus there is no barrier to the code changing over time from generation to generation.
But of what? OF PREVIOUSLY EXISTING CODE! Duplications do NOT create new code that the organism didn't previously have!
I've written lots of computer code where previous code was copied and one or two modifications were made to arrive at a different result.
Mutations change the code. It's that simple, it's that basic, it's that undeniable.
What about the horse hoof? I don't believe it fused during evolution at all, I believe it was created the way it was.
But that is change in species over time, change within "kind" if you will for they were horses before they had only one hoof.
And once again -- your OPINION has no effect on the reality around you.
Enjoy.

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This message is a reply to:
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 Message 76 by Someone who cares, posted 06-09-2006 10:17 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 75 of 115 (319779)
06-09-2006 10:15 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by Someone who cares
06-09-2006 10:05 PM


I've noted one on the other thread that renders your essay unreliable as any kind of evidence. Deal with it. I see no reason to tie up this thread with your mistakes on another site.
I also have some other stuff for you to deal with there
EvC Forum: Evolution Logic
Enjoy.

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 77 of 115 (319782)
06-09-2006 10:18 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by Someone who cares
06-09-2006 10:13 PM


But the 9 never existed before, where did you get it from?
It's an upside-down 6.
That's how simple it is.

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 79 of 115 (319791)
06-09-2006 10:28 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by Someone who cares
06-09-2006 10:17 PM


The preset genetic code would not allow it.
HOW???
You can't just keep saying this as if that alone prevents anything from happening. This is just assertion after assertion after assertion of the same ignorance and incredulity -- and NOT A SINGLE PIECE OF EVIDENCE.
The parents each gave half of their code, this recombined, there we have it, code for the offspring.
But it doesn't always happen that way. Sometimes you get more from one than the other, sometimes you get duplications of whole chromosomes.
You also have mutations that the offspring gets from badly copied code that results in code neither parent had.
You are just plain absolutely wrong that it is so limited, and the evidence can be found in any real study of genetics.
Mutations do alter the code, slightly. But they do not alter it in a way that would make evolution happen.
So you SAY without any evidence to substantiate it and in spite of evidence to the contrary. Speciation has been observed in many situations, and the genetic reasons for these speciations have been studied. Guess what? They are caused by mutations in the genetic code of the species involved.
You
Are
Wrong.
Again.
Have you read my essay yet?
Yes, and I found it boring, full of misrepresentations and false claims, with unsubstantiated assertion piled on unsubstantiated assertion. An argument from incredulity and ignorance with many careless PRATTS that any serious study would have uncovered beforehand. Like your arguments here.
Enjoy.
ps added by edit
It's not just opinion, it's backed up beliefs.
What a logical HOWLER! Beliefs are not evidence. Furthermore what you said in effect is:
It's not just opinion (what you think is true) it's backed up by belief (what you think is true).
ROFLOL.
Edited by RAZD, : added ps

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 86 of 115 (320648)
06-11-2006 9:34 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by Crue Knight
06-11-2006 1:00 AM


quote:
So, they please the world instead of standing tall for the truth?
Yeah, pretty much trying to please both sides. But it doesn't work that way. If one is right then the other is wrong.
Do you find spreading falsehoods to be "standing tall for the truth"? IF one side is right, then it doesn't need to misrepresent the other to show the truth eh?
Welcome to the fray btw. Is that some microscope picture for your avatar?
Edited by RAZD, : sp ell ing

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Crue Knight, posted 06-11-2006 1:00 AM Crue Knight has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by Crue Knight, posted 06-12-2006 10:05 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 91 of 115 (320972)
06-12-2006 10:19 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by Crue Knight
06-12-2006 10:05 PM


Yeah, pretty much trying to please both sides. But it doesn't work that way. If one is right then the other is wrong.
Do you find spreading falsehoods to be "standing tall for the truth"? IF one side is right, then it doesn't need to misrepresent the other to show the truth eh?
You didn't answer the question about truths vs spreading falsehoods.
You also have a logical fallacy above -- they can both be wrong, thus showing ONE to be wrong does not make the OTHER right.
Enjoy.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Crue Knight, posted 06-12-2006 10:05 PM Crue Knight has replied

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 Message 92 by Crue Knight, posted 06-14-2006 8:00 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 95 of 115 (321614)
06-14-2006 9:41 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by Crue Knight
06-14-2006 8:00 PM


lies and misrepresentations ok with creation?
We (cretionists) do not believe this is spreading falsehoods.
Unfortunately truth and falsehood are not dependant on the opinion of creationists, or evolutionists, or any other point of view, but on the facts.
As a matter of fact we think you (evolutionists) are. Thats what this forum is about, isnt it?
No, it's not about what you think but about how valid your argument is.
Thank you for admitting that you really don't care about the truth, that you don't really care about the facts, that you don't really care about knowledge, that you don't really care about checking the validity of your arguments.
All you are interested is in being comfortable.
You've just said that any and every lie is justified for a creationist to use. Because you think the "other side" is doing it has no justification for it. That's another logical fallacy btw.
But I meant if one (Evolution or creation) is right then the other is wrong. (has to be in this case)
Still a logical fallacy, a false dichotomy. There are {thousands to billions} of interpretations of creation not in conflict with evolution and that would not be contradicted by it.
Evolution is the change in species over time, it does not talk about where life first came from or about the preconditions of life being arranged in a grand cosmic scheme.
So let's be honest, it is not about {two} viewpoints, it is about {thousands to billions} of viewpoints where one is at odds with all the others. One that does not care about the truth and the honest representation of facts but depends more on ignorance than anything else.
And that what you want is to be comfortable in ignorance -- don't bother checking the facts or worry about getting the science right or even trying to understand the theories.
I have nothing positive to say about this kind of position, this attitude.
Enjoy.
Edited by RAZD, : added line

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Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by tdcanam, posted 06-15-2006 8:41 AM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 100 of 115 (322075)
06-15-2006 11:30 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by tdcanam
06-15-2006 8:41 AM


theories and concepts.
Welcome to the fray tdcanam.
I'm going to take issue with a different thing than ned, as I think he has covered the differences in the facts of evolution aspects that have been observed, other than to say that observed speciation divisions are more than just adaptation.
Both evo/cre seem to forget that they both stand on theories.
For this to be so, there has to be a {scientific = testable, refinable} theory somewhere in the pile of concepts for "creationism"
If creationism is not held to this standard then saying that they are "both theories" is like saying that a toy car and a toyota car are "both cars" because they both have "toy" in them.
Evolution theory is scientific, it is testable, it is refinable as more information becomes available - and there have been several instances of this.
A concept, and idea, a hypothesis, is NOT a scientific theory until it can be tested and refined.
Enjoy.

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 103 of 115 (324130)
06-20-2006 9:50 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by Crue Knight
06-19-2006 11:43 PM


I believe the earth is 13,000 yrs old (11,013 BC to be exact), ...
Let's take that to dates confirmed with dendrochronology on the {Age Correlations, step by step} thread (click)
Then we can move back to the topic here:
Message 1
Evolution is/has been about natural selection, right?
I've heard all sorts of theories about adaptation, but haven't found them all in one place.
as it applies to
But, evolution is no way part off the bible.
Is something not mentioned in the bible a contradiction of it? We have gradual change in species over time, observed on many levels, in many places, some resulting in breeding separation between daughter populations -- speciation -- and I am not aware of anything that says this cannot be so. I am also not a scholar on what is or is not included, so perhaps someone who is could tell me where this is said?
Enjoy.

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This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 114 of 115 (327418)
06-29-2006 7:50 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by Crue Knight
06-28-2006 9:46 PM


Re: Questions about Natural Selection
But if thing get "better" or whatever...all other things will die out.
Logical fallacy here. If one organism gets "better" adapted to its ecology (environment, predator-prey, competitions, etc) does not mean that suddenly all the other organisms are unfit. Behavior of other organsims will shift to adapt to the "new improved" model -- except of course, those completely unaffected by the change in the one organism.
The fossil record is also flush with extinct species -- what are those except the evidence of "other things" dying out?
Enjoy.

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