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Author Topic:   Evolutionary Adaptation
Someone who cares
Member (Idle past 5751 days)
Posts: 192
Joined: 06-06-2006


Message 52 of 115 (319733)
06-09-2006 9:14 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Isaac
06-08-2006 10:05 PM


The barrier is the genetic code ...? Sorry if I'm being rude, but none of what you wrote makes sense. Do you actually know what the genetic code is? And could you define "information" in a biological context please? Are you familiar with "gene duplication" by the way? Do you understand that evolution is a slow, gradual process (stuff like limbs would evolve over long periods of time)?
Creationists don't believe in evolution, they believe in creationism last time I checked . Scientists accept evolution as the best scientific explanation for the diversity of life on Earth.
Genetic code: "The sequence of nucleotides, coded in triplets (codons) along the mRNA, that determines the sequence of amino acids in protein synthesis. The DNA sequence of a gene can be used to predict the mRNA sequence, and the genetic code can in turn be used to predict the amino acid sequence." define:genetic code - Google Search
Genetic information: "A DNA sequence (sometimes genetic sequence) is a succession of letters representing the primary structure of a real or hypothetical DNA molecule or strand, The possible letters are A, C, G, and T, representing the four nucleotide subunits of a DNA strand (adenine, cytosine, guanine, thymine), and typically these are printed abutting one another without gaps, as in the sequence AAAGTCTGAC. This coded sequence is sometimes referred to as genetic information. ..." define:genetic information - Google Search
Gene duplication: "An error in DNA replication that results in a two genes" define:gene duplication - Google Search
Will those definitions work? ^^
Yes, I do know you believe evolution is a slow process that takes many generations and the never existing "millions of millions" of years.
Evolution is not the best explanation for the diversity. It crumbles when you speak of diversity and complexity. Evolution could not make all this in nature, by chance, by random processes.

"If you’re living like there is no God you’d better be right!" - Unknown

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Isaac, posted 06-08-2006 10:05 PM Isaac has not replied

  
Someone who cares
Member (Idle past 5751 days)
Posts: 192
Joined: 06-06-2006


Message 53 of 115 (319734)
06-09-2006 9:17 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by AdminJar
06-08-2006 10:06 PM


Re: Just a suggestion
If you would like I can set up a new thread just for you and one other participant, a mentor, that can help step you through some of the basics of the Theory of Evolution. If you would like that, just let me know and I will try to get it set up for you. That way you would not be facing a whole herd of folk at one time.
No thanks. I don't need a mentor. But a one on one debate, I may apply for sometime later... Thanks for the offer though.

"If you’re living like there is no God you’d better be right!" - Unknown

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Someone who cares
Member (Idle past 5751 days)
Posts: 192
Joined: 06-06-2006


Message 55 of 115 (319742)
06-09-2006 9:33 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Wounded King
06-09-2006 5:14 AM


All this suggests is that you don't know the first thing about developmental biology. I could show you a number of genes specifically, though not necessarily exclusively, expressed in the legs which are also expressed in the fins, so at least part of the 'code' for legs is there.
This whole post is nothing but pure asserion, do you think you could actually support any of these claims with evidence? Even one?
TTFN,
WK
I'm not saying that some parts may not have common genes. But this does not mean anything. I mean, the plant cells have a nucleus and a human cell has a nucleus, this doesn't mean they are related. This just shows to me that a Creator used similar patterns and genes and substances to create all the animals and plants and organims, one Creator, one basic pattern.
Ok, I'll back up some things with genetics, basic genetics. Everyone knows that the offspring takes it's DNA for it's traits and appearance from it's parents, basic genetics. Now, if the parents didn't have limbs, the offspring won't ever get them, or parts of them, or, it won't even start evolving them, for it's code was "preset" when it was born, to not contain limbs. It doesn't matter how many mutations you will get during meiosis, that offspring will not start evolving limbs, for it takes the DNA from it's parents, who did not have anything about evolving limbs. During meiosis, or whenever, mutations ONLY alter the PREVIOUSLY existing code of the organism. The code that was ALREADY there. Mutations CANNOT introduce any new code, they can only alter previously existing code. So if a mutation alters some code, that would not make code to start evolving limbs, for the organism's code didn't contain anything about limbs. Besides, mutations usually destroy an organism, or make it defective. Mutations are changes which usually only make it worse, or neutral. They are rarely beneficial mutations. Because the DNA is such a complex language, everything has to work just perfectly to maintain an organism. So if a mutation came in and messed up some DNA code, this would most likely do something bad, sometimes deadly.

"If you’re living like there is no God you’d better be right!" - Unknown

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Someone who cares
Member (Idle past 5751 days)
Posts: 192
Joined: 06-06-2006


Message 56 of 115 (319746)
06-09-2006 9:40 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by arachnophilia
06-09-2006 10:28 AM


if i were to take your post, and change it one letter at a time, could i ever make it say something different?
With random changes, you could make it more messed up and misspelled and confusing, perhaps even impossible to read. But you could not exchange some of my words and make synonyms for those words that would be more scholarly sounding or more scientific or better sounding. That's the whole point.
duplication errors are a fairly regular occurance. in fact, i think you will find that humans quite regularly have a whole extra chromosome.
XYY syndrome - Wikipedia
Klinefelter syndrome - Wikipedia
Trisomy X - Wikipedia
that's a whole extra copy of a chromosome, not just an extra gene.
That is called DUPLICATION, which means, making an extra copy of PREVIOUSLY existing code! MY POINT! That's the best you could do, you couldn't add new code for new cells or tissues or organs or something. You could ONLY duplicate that which had already existed! This is my point!
except, of course, for the fish that do have legs.
Like?

"If you’re living like there is no God you’d better be right!" - Unknown

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Someone who cares
Member (Idle past 5751 days)
Posts: 192
Joined: 06-06-2006


Message 58 of 115 (319750)
06-09-2006 9:45 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by kuresu
06-09-2006 4:47 PM


Mutated post:
It's nat loke thire as a mechanism for it, to stop a monkey from evolving into a human, or a reptile from evolving into a bird. It is the genetic code of an organism. The code is "preset" when the organism is born. There is code for only the traits and organs and tissues of that organism. Ne new cove can be added to the genetic code of an organism to make it evolvedinto a different kind of organism. It cannot happen. It never hzs. It never will. That fish over there will never have code added to it, naturally, to make it start evolving legs or parts of them os something. It's not going to happin.
Oh, and I'm counting the spaces in this "genetic" code, so those are liable to change also.
ABE: after screwing up several times (because there is no undo button online), I'm just going to show you the final change.
The theory of evolution is one of the greatest scientific truths uncovered by man. It is a natural account of how the diversity of life came about. The theory’s basic mechanism is natural selection, and this determines how “fit” an organism is to its environment. “Fit”ness is a measure of reproductive success”the more offspring you have, the “fitter” you are. Keep in mind, this is a bare-bones definition, and does not reach the full complexity of what natural selection is. In other words, if you are better adapted to your environment, then you will most likely have more offspring. This pattern will continue.
This is a total of 621 characters including spaces, yours was 603. I was going to change it by a hundred per generation, so it would only cover six generations (arachs initial plan would take 603, my first 61). This message is also a completely different kind (sort of like your reptile to bird thing). It moves from against evolution to for evolution--the other side of the spectrum, and as such a complete change outside of kind. Also, there is a addition of information, something you claim can't happen. And guess what, it's using the same letters.
You didn't do that using RANDOM, UNGUIDED mutations though, did you? There was an intelligent being who wrote that, not random unguided processes. And you added some characters, which I did not use, thus this is not how a real mutation works. Thus the whole effort was futile. If you were blinded, unconscience, making random changes, without seeing what you were doing, without even knowing, and ended up with that result, I may have considered it. But that's not the case.

"If you’re living like there is no God you’d better be right!" - Unknown

This message is a reply to:
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Someone who cares
Member (Idle past 5751 days)
Posts: 192
Joined: 06-06-2006


Message 60 of 115 (319752)
06-09-2006 9:47 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Crue Knight
06-09-2006 8:49 PM


There are many people who tries to bring peace to both sides by believing "Theistic-Evolution". They believe God created the "materials" and let evolution take over.
So, they please the world instead of standing tall for the truth?

"If you’re living like there is no God you’d better be right!" - Unknown

This message is a reply to:
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Someone who cares
Member (Idle past 5751 days)
Posts: 192
Joined: 06-06-2006


Message 61 of 115 (319755)
06-09-2006 9:48 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by RAZD
06-09-2006 9:02 PM


What an arrogant, condescending and insulting thing to say.
I was actually feeling pity for the person, and you come in and say that was insulting? Please...

"If you’re living like there is no God you’d better be right!" - Unknown

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Replies to this message:
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Someone who cares
Member (Idle past 5751 days)
Posts: 192
Joined: 06-06-2006


Message 63 of 115 (319758)
06-09-2006 9:55 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by RAZD
06-09-2006 9:19 PM


In other words you don't have a clue.
No, in other words, there is no specific barrier mechanism which controls it. The preset genetic code is the thing that won't allow.
Not quite. The genes that are assembled contain the code for making the organism that will be -- including any mutations that have occurred, either in the genes of the parents that are included, or in the process of DNA replication and assembly.
Some of these will be neutral mistakes that won't affect the growth of the new organism, some will be deadly and cause a new organism to die before it matures, and some will have some minor benefit to the individual in the environment it will live in.
It will have evolved from it's parents. All species are in transition this way.
Yes, the code of the offspring is combined during meiosis, but where did the code come from? THE PARENTS! So if parents didn't have limbs, offspring isn't going to have them or start evolving them either, even if you gave it a million mutations and a million generations. Not going to happen.
Once more, your repeated assertion is NOT evidence of any such restriction on the evolution of organisms. This is still just more of the same argument from incredulity and ignorance.
Any time a section of genetic code is copied there can be mistakes, some of those mistakes include duplicating areas of code so that the recipient has two (or more) copies -- one that it then uses for normal growth and one that can evolve to different features. There is nothing to prevent this kind of change in species over time from happening.
Do you know what is special about the hoof of a horse that cannot be explained just by the fusing of foot bones into a single toe supporting shank?
You may get a duplication. But of what? OF PREVIOUSLY EXISTING CODE! Duplications do NOT create new code that the organism didn't previously have!
What about the horse hoof? I don't believe it fused during evolution at all, I believe it was created the way it was.

"If you’re living like there is no God you’d better be right!" - Unknown

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Someone who cares
Member (Idle past 5751 days)
Posts: 192
Joined: 06-06-2006


Message 66 of 115 (319763)
06-09-2006 9:58 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Lithodid-Man
06-09-2006 9:44 PM


Re: Can't leave this one alone
That's what meiosis is? The combination of genetic code from parents to form the code of the offspring? Are you sure? Meiosis? Hmmm...
No, but it starts from meiosis. Meiosis divides the chromosome number in half. Then the combination takes place. Sorry for any confusion, I thought it's quite obvious.

"If you’re living like there is no God you’d better be right!" - Unknown

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Someone who cares
Member (Idle past 5751 days)
Posts: 192
Joined: 06-06-2006


Message 68 of 115 (319765)
06-09-2006 10:01 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by arachnophilia
06-09-2006 9:46 PM


there was a member a while back, a really nutter, who kept going on about moses's cd-rom collection. he was using strong's concordance to find alternate renderings of certain words in the bible, and derive some higher meaning (about cd-roms) from them.
so i began using his methods against him. at one point, i was "translating" his own posts against him. it was actually quite entertaining.
so, yes, you can do it. i have.
I'm sure you weren't blindfolded and unconscience when you were doing it...
whoa whoa. wait a second, engage the brain a little.
if i have the following string of numbers:
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8
and i duplicate one number:
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 8
and then i modify one number:
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9
tada, new data.
Who or what allowed you to modify the 8 into a 9?

"If you’re living like there is no God you’d better be right!" - Unknown

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Someone who cares
Member (Idle past 5751 days)
Posts: 192
Joined: 06-06-2006


Message 69 of 115 (319767)
06-09-2006 10:03 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Belfry
06-09-2006 9:55 PM


Yes, rather. And your comment in Message 60 was even worse.
That was a different post. And I wasn't referring to any specific person, I was referring to a group.

"If you’re living like there is no God you’d better be right!" - Unknown

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Someone who cares
Member (Idle past 5751 days)
Posts: 192
Joined: 06-06-2006


Message 70 of 115 (319768)
06-09-2006 10:05 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by RAZD
06-09-2006 9:57 PM


The way you do by insulting others, and posting misrepresentations of the truth on your website?
At least he is honest in his belief eh?
Enjoy.
Would you be willing to point out the "misrepresentations"? Please do.

"If you’re living like there is no God you’d better be right!" - Unknown

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Someone who cares
Member (Idle past 5751 days)
Posts: 192
Joined: 06-06-2006


Message 73 of 115 (319775)
06-09-2006 10:10 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by RAZD
06-09-2006 10:01 PM


Re: Insults -- yes.
No, you were feeling superior, therefore you could "pity" him. That is where the arrogance comes in.
And yes it was insulting. You think you have a better understanding?
And btw this is now insult #3 you have issued -- you think he needs to be pitied?
Please.
I have plenty of reason to believe that evolution is false, there is proof for this, check out my essay I spoke of.
I feel sorry for those people who are already believing in Creation, they are on the right track, but then, they believe in evolution, which is a lie. I wish that they would drop evolution and fully believe in Creation, they are already almost there. That's the sad part, they are this close to the truth, but don't cross over to it. I feel the same about people who were Creationists, but then they turned to evolution. They had the truth, but then they lost it...

"If you’re living like there is no God you’d better be right!" - Unknown

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Someone who cares
Member (Idle past 5751 days)
Posts: 192
Joined: 06-06-2006


Message 74 of 115 (319777)
06-09-2006 10:13 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by arachnophilia
06-09-2006 10:08 PM


i could just as easily have picked words at random out of a thesaurus, and selected the variations i thought were favorable.
But you, are an intelligent being. You are conscience and smart when you do that. But evolution is supposed to be unguided, and random, without direction...
simple variation, which you agreed happens. i kept it "within it's kind" too: single digits.
But the 9 never existed before, where did you get it from?

"If you’re living like there is no God you’d better be right!" - Unknown

This message is a reply to:
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Someone who cares
Member (Idle past 5751 days)
Posts: 192
Joined: 06-06-2006


Message 76 of 115 (319781)
06-09-2006 10:17 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by RAZD
06-09-2006 10:09 PM


So there is nothing that prevents it.
The preset genetic code would not allow it.
And when the code of the offspring is different from the code of either parent where did that come from? The parents with mutation. Thus there is no barrier to the code changing over time from generation to generation.
The parents each gave half of their code, this recombined, there we have it, code for the offspring.
I've written lots of computer code where previous code was copied and one or two modifications were made to arrive at a different result.
Mutations change the code. It's that simple, it's that basic, it's that undeniable.
Mutations do alter the code, slightly. But they do not alter it in a way that would make evolution happen. Have you read my essay yet?
But that is change in species over time, change within "kind" if you will for they were horses before they had only one hoof.
And once again -- your OPINION has no effect on the reality around you.
Enjoy.
It's not just opinion, it's backed up beliefs. I have reason to believe what I believe in.

"If you’re living like there is no God you’d better be right!" - Unknown

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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