Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,806 Year: 3,063/9,624 Month: 908/1,588 Week: 91/223 Day: 2/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Is morality absolute or relative?
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 46 of 150 (320213)
06-10-2006 8:16 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by jar
06-10-2006 8:15 PM


quote:
What is an example of absolute morality?
More to the point, how can morality be absolute?

"We must respect the other fellow's religion, but only in the same sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart."
-- H. L. Mencken (quoted on Panda's Thumb)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by jar, posted 06-10-2006 8:15 PM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Rob, posted 06-10-2006 8:25 PM Chiroptera has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 47 of 150 (320221)
06-10-2006 8:25 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Chiroptera
06-10-2006 8:16 PM


More to the point, how can morality be absolute?
Thanks for getting things back on philosophical ground. That is an 'excellent' question but it is kind of like trying to prove our existence. Descartes said 'I think therfore I am', but in the end it proves nothing. Instead what we do is ask, 'can I deny my existence?'
Not without affirming it! So the contradiction points to the truth.
How can morality be absolute? Because without it, life would destroy itself. And that owuldn't be wrong... just total chaos.
Morality suggests the opposite.. that life is ordered and therfore eternal.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Chiroptera, posted 06-10-2006 8:16 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Chiroptera, posted 06-10-2006 8:32 PM Rob has replied
 Message 50 by Coragyps, posted 06-10-2006 8:52 PM Rob has replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 48 of 150 (320226)
06-10-2006 8:32 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Rob
06-10-2006 8:25 PM


Without morality, life would destroy itself.
Okay, first, is there any reason I should believe this?
Second, I will remind you that we are not discussing the existence of morality (we agree that it exists); we are discussing the possible existence of absolute morality.

"We must respect the other fellow's religion, but only in the same sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart."
-- H. L. Mencken (quoted on Panda's Thumb)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Rob, posted 06-10-2006 8:25 PM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Rob, posted 06-10-2006 8:45 PM Chiroptera has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 49 of 150 (320236)
06-10-2006 8:45 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Chiroptera
06-10-2006 8:32 PM


Without morality, life would destroy itself.
Okay, first, is there any reason I should believe this?
I forgive you for not seeing this... have you heard of WAR?
Second, I will remind you that we are not discussing the existence of morality (we agree that it exists); we are discussing the possible existence of absolute morality.
let me go into more detail...
Perhaps if we ask the right questions, we can follow all of this to the truth.
For now, let's talk about the notion of 'absolute truth'. I contend that 'absolute truths' exist. I would now like to suggest from where those truths must come. If this entir triggers your defense mechanisms, then you no doubt find yourself thinking, "There are no absolute truths". Just remember that's a contradiction. If it were true, then it would be an absolute truth. Argue if you must, but this all boils down to our choice of perspective. Is the glass half full or half empty? Perhaps in light of what's been covered so far, you'll indulge me a little longer, even if only for your own entertainment. Are we having fun?
If morality exists, it is a perfect example of absolute truth. Many have suggested that we each have our own truths or own morals. Can you see the distinction between the concept of 'own' truths, vs. 'universal and absolute'?
The fact is, there is no such thing as morality; unless, you assume a creator. If that creator exists, then his laws are supreme and sovereign and are not 'ours', we can only submit to them or adopt them. They are certainly not relative if they are a natural 'law'. If that creator exists, and we say to someone that their actions are immoral as per the natural order (creator), then we are only telling the truth. It is not an imposition. They are free not to abide by them, so how is it imposed? It is the reality of the truth that leaves them feeling violated. Why does the truth hurt? Are we that foreign to it? What is the solution? Can we not say so because we are not perfect? If we were, would we be crucified?
This same principle applies if we claim to be God by implication. We will then impose our morality on others for an assumed end that we agree is the best purpose for our existence. Eithr way morality is absolute.
Moral relativism is an oxymoron!
I have to go for a while, so I don't get divorced (that's a sin you know

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Chiroptera, posted 06-10-2006 8:32 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Chiroptera, posted 06-10-2006 9:40 PM Rob has not replied

Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 50 of 150 (320239)
06-10-2006 8:52 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Rob
06-10-2006 8:25 PM


How can morality be absolute? Because without it, life would destroy itself.
So carp and grasshoppers have absolute morality? Last I looked, they hadn't destroyed themselves.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Rob, posted 06-10-2006 8:25 PM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Rob, posted 06-10-2006 9:42 PM Coragyps has not replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 51 of 150 (320262)
06-10-2006 9:40 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Rob
06-10-2006 8:45 PM


quote:
I forgive you for not seeing this... have you heard of WAR?
Yes, and also, at least so far, life has not destroyed itself.
But since we both agree that morality exists, this is moot.
-
quote:
I contend that 'absolute truths' exist.
What is "an absolute truth"? Can you give me an example so I know what you are talking about?
-
quote:
If this entir triggers your defense mechanisms....
If I point out that there is no logic in your post, does that count as a defense mechanism?
-
quote:
Are we having fun?
I'm always amused by examples of "word salad".
-
quote:
If morality exists, it is a perfect example of absolute truth.
You have not really explained what an absolute truth is, that morality is an absolute truth, nor that being an absolute truth implies that there is an absolute standard for morality.
-
quote:
The fact is, there is no such thing as morality; unless, you assume a creator.
This is not true. The existence of morality and the existence of a creator are logically independent. You can have a creator with no morals, you can have a creator with morals, you can have morals with no creator, and you can have neither morals nor creator. The existence of one does not imply the other.
However, we do agree that morals exist. What we do not agree on, and which you have not yet demonstrated, is the existence of an absolute standard for morality.
-
quote:
This same principle applies if we claim to be God by implication.
Since no one here is claiming to be God, this is moot.
-
quote:
Moral relativism is an oxymoron!
An absolute standard for morality is a contradiction in terms. Making assertians like this is easy. But at least I have justified mine.

"We must respect the other fellow's religion, but only in the same sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart."
-- H. L. Mencken (quoted on Panda's Thumb)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Rob, posted 06-10-2006 8:45 PM Rob has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 52 of 150 (320263)
06-10-2006 9:42 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Coragyps
06-10-2006 8:52 PM


So carp and grasshoppers have absolute morality? Last I looked, they hadn't destroyed themselves.
That's a very good analysis. Your quite right! They do have absolute morality. They do exactly as they are expected and appear to be content with being what they are.
It is only humanity that does not do what it even expects from itself. Which is a curious thing when you think about it. Even men and women who hold a moral code violate it, and are not happy that they do.
Perhaps we are trying to be something we are not and should not strive for morality. Perhaps our problem is that we try to be good, but we are really meant to be animals without morals. That is a scary proposition but there are some who imagine such a world and think just that. I doubt any of them seriously forsee the horrors of suchan existence.
The other alternative is that the morals we strive for are not found within though they are real. In which case we must look to the source of them if we would like to gain them.
They are not ours these morals... No, not any 'real' ones.
When Jesus was being patronized and called a good teacher, He gave an interseting reply, "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone. (Mark 10:18)
In other words He said, 'do you really know who I claim to be?' He also clearly demonstrated that goodness is not relative but perfect (which is synonomous with 'absolute')
Do you see how morality ties in to absolutes and perfection? Either that or we are kidding ourselves and the people we call 'the most depraved' among us, are in reality as Rob Zombie said, 'More Human than You Man'...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Coragyps, posted 06-10-2006 8:52 PM Coragyps has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Rob, posted 06-10-2006 9:57 PM Rob has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 53 of 150 (320271)
06-10-2006 9:57 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Rob
06-10-2006 9:42 PM


What is "an absolute truth"?
We're gonna go deep here so let me entertain...
God is by definition the only thing that is absolute! So anything that is His, such as law would also be absolute. Now if we hijack that law and claim it to be law, we may imply sovereignty but miss the mark (sin).
Truth would only be a part of HIM. A dimension of Him. We could call truth His Son if that Son came into time. Since Jesus claimed to be the truth, I think we can at least appriciate the incredible handle on logic that He posessed.
Absolute truth is what we operate on. We get out of bed in the morning because we believe we must do so. Regardless of whether our assumped truth is in fact real, the fact of the matter is that 'truth' is the most base fuel of man.
So if we say that evolution is true, we imply that it is absolutely true!
It is not difficult really, these are just not the kind of assumptions that rise above our subconscious without some irritating probing by some mystical spell weaver...
Morality and truth are transcendant... That is why naturalists have a difficult time understanding them. Because their starting assumptions are immediately violated or exposed (depending on your perspective). Which one is true?
The absolute one!

Any biters in the stream?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Rob, posted 06-10-2006 9:42 PM Rob has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by jar, posted 06-10-2006 10:16 PM Rob has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 54 of 150 (320277)
06-10-2006 10:16 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Rob
06-10-2006 9:57 PM


God is by definition the only thing that is absolute! So anything that is His, such as law would also be absolute.
Ah, you mean the Invisible Pink Unicorn, or the FSM, or Loki, or Shiva or Odin, or Jupiter?
You might be refering to the Jewish/Christian/Muslim GOD (and I might agree with you) but that would just be my opinion, hardly an absolute.
But you still have not brought us an example of Absolute Morality.
It's fine play with words. even pusing your opinions, but the thread, YOUR thread is on "Is morality absolute or relative?"
Before that question can be answered we need some idea of what an absolute moral might be.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Rob, posted 06-10-2006 9:57 PM Rob has not replied

nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 55 of 150 (320278)
06-10-2006 10:19 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Rob
06-10-2006 7:32 PM


I challenged Rob's view:
nwr writes:
Show me a moral absolutist, and I will show you a moral relativist who absolutely wants to impose his relative morals on everybody else.
Rob's response was name calling:
Rob writes:
Your quite right roadkill...
I rest my case.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Rob, posted 06-10-2006 7:32 PM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Rob, posted 06-10-2006 10:27 PM nwr has replied
 Message 62 by Rob, posted 06-10-2006 10:42 PM nwr has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 56 of 150 (320280)
06-10-2006 10:19 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by jar
06-10-2006 8:15 PM


What is an example of absolute morality?
Sorry jar, you must have missed the answer to this question on page one of the thread. Message number 11.
1. You shall not worship any other god but YHWH.
2. You shall not make a graven image.
3. You shall not take the name of YHWH in vain.
4. You shall not break the Sabbath.
5. You shall not dishonor your parents.
6. You shall not murder.
7. You shall not commit adultery
8. You shall not steal.
9. You shall not commit perjury.
10. You shall not covet.
Anything absolute must come from God, because by definition He is the only thing 'outside' of this relative universe.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by jar, posted 06-10-2006 8:15 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by jar, posted 06-10-2006 10:25 PM Rob has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 57 of 150 (320282)
06-10-2006 10:25 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Rob
06-10-2006 10:19 PM


First, are any of them either moral or absolute?
The first is only absolute if you happen to be a Christian.
The second is absolutely relative. What the hell is a graven image?
The third is yet another commandment to Jews and Christians.
The fourth was shown to be relative by no one less than Jesus himself. When your ass is in a crack on the sabbath you don't wait till the next day to pull it out. So said Jesus.
The fifth is absolutely relative.
So are all of the rest.
Sorry, not one absolute there, and infact, not one of them have anything really to do with morality.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Rob, posted 06-10-2006 10:19 PM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Rob, posted 06-10-2006 10:30 PM jar has not replied
 Message 61 by Rob, posted 06-10-2006 10:35 PM jar has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 58 of 150 (320283)
06-10-2006 10:27 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by nwr
06-10-2006 10:19 PM


lets be fair now... I've always admitted when I'm outdone...
Rob's response was name calling:
Rob writes:
Your quite right roadkill...
I'm sorry nwr, just having fun. Personally I would laugh if someone called me a toothless drunk. But then again, it's not true either!
What I actually said in response to...
Show me a moral absolutist, and I will show you a moral relativist who absolutely wants to impose his relative morals on everybody else.
was this...
Your quite right roadkill... everytime you accuse Bush of warcrimes you do just that!
There are no crimes unless there are morals... If we're just making them up, then tell us so, and quit judging other people...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by nwr, posted 06-10-2006 10:19 PM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by nwr, posted 06-10-2006 11:54 PM Rob has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 59 of 150 (320284)
06-10-2006 10:30 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by jar
06-10-2006 10:25 PM


The fifth is absolutely relative.
So are all of the rest.
Sorry, not one absolute there, and infact, not one of them have anything really to do with morality.
Okay, perhaps I can get the idea accross this way. if everything you said above is true... it is absolutely true!
Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by jar, posted 06-10-2006 10:25 PM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Rob, posted 06-10-2006 10:35 PM Rob has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 60 of 150 (320286)
06-10-2006 10:35 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Rob
06-10-2006 10:30 PM


jar... Do you acknowledge that absolute truth exists?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Rob, posted 06-10-2006 10:30 PM Rob has not replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024