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Author Topic:   Is morality absolute or relative?
anglagard
Member (Idle past 836 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 106 of 150 (320400)
06-11-2006 2:10 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by Rob
06-11-2006 2:03 AM


Re: Try sticking to the topic Robhis very well
Well, I forgive you for that too. And I know God does.
Are you GOD, do you speak for GOD?
You sure seem to feel free to pass out moral judgements, as though you are.
Edited by anglagard, : clarity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by Rob, posted 06-11-2006 2:03 AM Rob has not replied

NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 107 of 150 (320405)
06-11-2006 2:20 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by Rob
06-11-2006 2:03 AM


What we have already learned.
If I believed that, I would live exclusively for me...
Yes, we have learned from other posters here that there are people like you with no conscience. They can't control themselves and have to have someone with a very big stick indeed threaten them with punishment to make them behave.
Not all of us are like that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by Rob, posted 06-11-2006 2:03 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by Rob, posted 06-11-2006 2:41 AM NosyNed has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 108 of 150 (320407)
06-11-2006 2:27 AM
Reply to: Message 105 by DrJones*
06-11-2006 2:07 AM


Re: Try sticking to the topic Robhis very well
Is it really humble to boast of your humility?
I'm not talking about my humility, I'm not a humble person myself. I am prideful and hate losing an argument. Unfortunately I do lose them when I forget that I am trying to say something meaningful and instead seek to prove to everyone that I'm really smart.
I'm not OK, and I am not smart. But Jesus is OK, and smarter than all of us. I will boast of His humility, because He did not condescend becasue of it. His humility was without defilement. He could have anhialated us as we drove the nails, but He didn't because He was secure.
You know what the problem is with trying to figure out reality for most of us?
We try to leave the one thing out that is the only reality we cannot question. The fact that we are depraved!
Malcomb Muggeridge said it as well as anyone:
"The depravity of man is at once, the most imperically verifiable reality, and yet it is the most intellectually resisted fact."
C.S. Lewis said in chapter one of 'Mere Christianity' that we know the Law of Human nature and really can't seem to get rid of it. Furthermore we do not keep it, He goes on to say that those two things we must understand if we are to begin to understand anything about the world we live in. It is why he titled chapter one, 'right and wrong as a key to understanding the universe'.
I'm not bragging DR., I'm stating the obvious that typically goes right under our inflated heads.
Perhaps if I were actually perfect you would listen. As it is you can rightly label me a hypocrite! There are only two ways not to be a hypocrite.
1. Actually be perfect and sinless.
2. Have no standards of behavior at all.
Perhaps if I were perfect, you would crucify me!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by DrJones*, posted 06-11-2006 2:07 AM DrJones* has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by ReverendDG, posted 06-11-2006 2:39 AM Rob has replied

ReverendDG
Member (Idle past 4110 days)
Posts: 1119
From: Topeka,kansas
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 109 of 150 (320409)
06-11-2006 2:39 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by Rob
06-11-2006 2:27 AM


Re: Try sticking to the topic Robhis very well
How in the world is this tagent relevent to the topic?
lets see some moral absolutes as per the topic, or are you unable to answer the OP that you started rob?
you are stating that there are moral absolutes and are unable to back them up with evidence it seems, so shift the topic around to some moral preaching instead
as i said before moral absolutes are impossible because too many other factors come into play for there to be, its not black and white as you seem to see everything but all grey

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Rob, posted 06-11-2006 2:27 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by Rob, posted 06-11-2006 2:50 AM ReverendDG has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 110 of 150 (320411)
06-11-2006 2:41 AM
Reply to: Message 107 by NosyNed
06-11-2006 2:20 AM


Re: What we have already learned.
Yes, we have learned from other posters here that there are people like you with no conscience. They can't control themselves and have to have someone with a very big stick indeed threaten them with punishment to make them behave.
I don't control myself because God is going to punish me if I don't. I still do not control myself enough to be free from God's rightful justice. I can't save myself!
You are free to believe that you control yourself. And I hope that you do, because that is all that is required to enter heaven. Perhaps you can speak for God since you are qualified.
Job 13: 6-12 "Hear now my argument; listen to the plea of my lips. Will you speak wickedly on Gods behalf? Will you speak deceitfully for him? Will you show him partiality? Will you argue the case for God? Would it turn out well if he examined you? Could you deceive him as you might deceive men? Would not his splendor terrify you? Would not the dread of him fall on you? Your maxims are proverbs of ashes; your defenses are defenses of clay."
Not all of us are like that.
I know. You are fortunate! I am afflicted.
If I were smart I would listen to you and learn the truth, that there is no truth. But I am only a fool for Christ! He has bought and paid for me. I needed forgiveness and traded my life for it.
He who tries to keep his life will lose it. But He who loses his life for my sake will find it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by NosyNed, posted 06-11-2006 2:20 AM NosyNed has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 111 of 150 (320413)
06-11-2006 2:50 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by ReverendDG
06-11-2006 2:39 AM


Re: Try sticking to the topic Robhis very well
as i said before moral absolutes are impossible because too many other factors come into play for there to be, its not black and white as you seem to see everything but all grey
That's interesting! 'All' is not a grey concept! You are making a very fundamentalist claim to deny that things are fundamental.
In denying that anything is black and white, you prove that they are...
A logically contradictory statement cannot be true!
Don't you see? Morality is the only thing in this relative world that is absolute. That is why it is the key to understanding the mystery.
But you cannot see it, because you do not want your sin revealed. Your fig leaves have become such a part of you, that you cannot imagine anymore, the real you. You have become dead even as you live.
”This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God (John 3; 19).
It is like trying to work out math problems and understand (see) the equations without having the number 1 in your toolbox.
Morality is the 1.
Jesu did not come to give a blind religion to the poor. He came to make the blind see and free sinners.
Mt 9:13
But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by ReverendDG, posted 06-11-2006 2:39 AM ReverendDG has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by anglagard, posted 06-11-2006 2:59 AM Rob has replied
 Message 113 by jmrozi1, posted 06-11-2006 3:02 AM Rob has not replied
 Message 115 by AdminPD, posted 06-11-2006 8:01 AM Rob has not replied

anglagard
Member (Idle past 836 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 112 of 150 (320416)
06-11-2006 2:59 AM
Reply to: Message 111 by Rob
06-11-2006 2:50 AM


Re: Try sticking to the topic Robhis very well
quote:
But you cannot see it, because you do not want your sin revealed. Your fig leaves have become such a part of you, that you cannot imagine anymore, the real you. You have become dead even as you live.
Every child with a minimal understanding of Christianity knows "judge not lest you be judged" and "there shall be no other gods before me."
I ask, who are you to pass judgment on the state of another's eternal soul?
Edited by anglagard, : term repeat unwarranted

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Rob, posted 06-11-2006 2:50 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by Rob, posted 06-11-2006 11:17 AM anglagard has not replied
 Message 118 by Rob, posted 06-11-2006 11:20 AM anglagard has not replied

jmrozi1
Member (Idle past 5893 days)
Posts: 79
From: Maryland
Joined: 12-09-2005


Message 113 of 150 (320417)
06-11-2006 3:02 AM
Reply to: Message 111 by Rob
06-11-2006 2:50 AM


Re: Try sticking to the topic Robhis very well
Rob writes:
Morality is the only thing in this relative world that is absolute.
Sorry to jump in by quote mining, but reading this particular statement forced me to step in. If morality is absolute, then how do you explain cultural relativism? If Eskimos didn't believe that infanticide was moral, they probably wouldn't be here today. However, can you think of the moral system of any first world country that would allow for this? It certainly wouldn't be the United States.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Rob, posted 06-11-2006 2:50 AM Rob has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 114 of 150 (320441)
06-11-2006 7:35 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by Rob
06-11-2006 12:10 AM


Re: Law has nothing to do with morality.
Do you hate Santa Claus?
What about Krishna?
The Great Galactic Goat?
quote:
I hate evil! Especially when I see it in myself.
That is not an answer to the questions I asked.
You accused someone of hating God.
I asked you in turn if you hated Santa claus, Krishna, or the Great Galactic Goat.
Do you or don't you?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Rob, posted 06-11-2006 12:10 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by Rob, posted 06-11-2006 11:39 AM nator has replied

AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


Message 115 of 150 (320450)
06-11-2006 8:01 AM
Reply to: Message 111 by Rob
06-11-2006 2:50 AM


Warning! Warning!
Rob Stop!
People are trying to engage you in a serious discussion, but you aren't giving answers that explain anything. You give the impression of playing with no real intention of helping people understand what you are saying. I don't feel you are debating in a respectful manner.
I strongly suggest you leave out humor until you get to know other posters. Also remember to argue the position not the person and remember rule #4.
Points should be supported with evidence and/or reasoned argumentation. Address rebuttals through the introduction of additional evidence or by enlarging upon the argument. Do not repeat previous points without further elaboration. Avoid bare assertions.
We have been lenient because you are new and because it is your topic, but I feel you are abusing your participants.
If you continue this style of debating, I will close down this thread permanently.
Please direct any comments concerning this Admin msg to the Moderation Thread.
If you respond in this thread, you will receive a timeout (24 hour suspension).
Thank you Purple

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Rob, posted 06-11-2006 2:50 AM Rob has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 116 of 150 (320461)
06-11-2006 10:20 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by Rob
06-11-2006 12:45 AM


Re: don't you get it... imean c'mon!
If that is true Crash, it is ABSOLUTE!
I guess it is.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Rob, posted 06-11-2006 12:45 AM Rob has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 117 of 150 (320468)
06-11-2006 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 112 by anglagard
06-11-2006 2:59 AM


Re: Try sticking to the topic Robhis very well
I ask, who are you to pass judgment on the state of another's eternal soul?
I am not passing judgement. I am only telling the truth. It is a situation that we are all in.
It is contrary to what you perceive. For example, if you see yourself as righteous and guilty of nothing, then it is you who pass judgement on those (such as myself) who are the problem. It is then that you begin to meddle in all varieties of social construct to enact repair to the dammage I and others have done. Perhaps you will write law to right the wrongs. Not only do you judge, but you legislate from an assumed position of sovereignty.
I defer to C.S. Lewis to add context to your misinterpretation of how I can say with certainty some of these things:
Now the position would be quite hopeless but for this. There is one thing, and only one, in the whole universe which we know more about than we could learn from external observation. That one thing is Man. We do not merely observe men, we are men.
It seems to me that Lewis was familliar with discussions like these on morality. He continues:
Now what interests me about all these remarks is that the man who makes them is not merely saying that the other man’s behavior does not happen to please him. He is appealing to some kind of standard of behavior which he expects the other man to know about. And the other man very seldom replies: “To hell with your standard.” Nearly always he tries to make out that what he has been doing does not really go against the standard, or that if it does there is some special reason in this particular case why the person who took the seat first should not keep it, or that things were quite different when he was given the bit of orange, or that something has turned up which lets him off keeping his promise. It looks, in fact, very much as if both parties had in mind some kind of Law or Rule of fair play or decent behavior or morality or whatever you like to call it, about which they really agreed. And they have. If they had not, they might, of course, fight like animals, but they could not quarrel in the human sense of the word. Quarreling means trying to show that the other man is in the wrong. And there would be no sense in trying to do that unless you and he had some sort of agreement as to what Right and Wrong are; just as there would be no sense in saying that a footballer had committed a foul unless there was some agreement about the rules of football.
Edited by Rob, : No reason given.
Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by anglagard, posted 06-11-2006 2:59 AM anglagard has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by nwr, posted 06-11-2006 11:39 AM Rob has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 118 of 150 (320470)
06-11-2006 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 112 by anglagard
06-11-2006 2:59 AM


Re: Try sticking to the topic Robhis very well
See # 117

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by anglagard, posted 06-11-2006 2:59 AM anglagard has not replied

nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 119 of 150 (320472)
06-11-2006 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 117 by Rob
06-11-2006 11:17 AM


Re: Try sticking to the topic Robhis very well
It seems to me that Lewis was familliar with discussions like these on morality. He continues:
[quote from Lewis elided]
To me, that quoted text reads like an account of moral relativity.
footnote: those long boldface quotes are too garish and hurt the eyes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by Rob, posted 06-11-2006 11:17 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by Rob, posted 06-11-2006 11:42 AM nwr has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 120 of 150 (320473)
06-11-2006 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by nator
06-11-2006 7:35 AM


Re: Law has nothing to do with morality.
You accused someone of hating God.
Really? And that suprises anyone? Does any of us love God? Am I the first to admit that we are an adulterous generation, forsaking the truth in exchange for a moment of pleasure? Which of us is righteous and good? Which of us keeps His commands? Which of us does not nail the truth to the cross every day?
This issue of Morality being absolute is unable to be subtracted from the Biblical worldview. So I am not getting off topic.
It is not a contention that is proved by showing evidence. It is a contention that is proved because of what we are.
We are the evidence!
Romans 3:10 As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one; 11 there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. 12 All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one." 13 "Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit." "The poison of vipers is on their lips." 14 "Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness." 15 "Their feet are swift to shed blood; 16 ruin and misery mark their ways, 17 and the way of peace they do not know." 18 "There is no fear of God before their eyes."
Romans 1: 16 I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 17 For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith." 18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness,
19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. 24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen. 26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. 28 Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32 Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
Edited by Rob, : No reason given.
Edited by Rob, : No reason given.
Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by nator, posted 06-11-2006 7:35 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by CK, posted 06-11-2006 11:57 AM Rob has replied
 Message 124 by nator, posted 06-11-2006 12:30 PM Rob has replied

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