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Author
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Topic: What Does the Second Coming Entail?
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Legend
Member (Idle past 5033 days) Posts: 1226 From: Wales, UK Joined: 05-07-2004
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Message 115 of 238 (318813)
06-07-2006 4:26 PM
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Reply to: Message 107 by iano
06-07-2006 12:13 PM
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Re: Flip Flop
iano writes: I was responding to your post where you said "if you take the whole of the bible as the true word of God, then that's the only conclusion I can come to about God". You started your reading on this presumption and I offered a further bit of advice as an outworking of that basic assumption, ie: if you hit apparent inconsistancy assume the problem lies with you. Here you hopped out of "bible as the word of God" and switched "to mangled old myth". Did I miss a step somewhere? yes, the step where a non-assuming person thinks "the word of God cannot be full of factual errors, internal inconsistencies and false prophecies, therefore the Bible isn't the word of God". If, however, you're determined to follow the "if it doesn't make sense just forget about it" approach, thereby sidelining the critical thinking ability that your Creator gave you, then you can read any old crap and be convinced that it's the word of God.
iano writes: I don't take the Quran to be the word of God thus am highly unlikely to try and form views about God from it. why not ?! it seems you arbitrary decided that the Bible is, even before reading it. Go read the Quran with the attitude you described earlier and you'll soon be converted.
iano writes: ps: Any ideas about how one reads the bible "in context", the advice you offered to Larni. Simple one for you: what is the context of the Bible? Globally like. there is no 'global' context for the bible, it's just a mish-mash of stories spanning several centuries, authors and different cultural backgrounds. Larni should read each book in it's own context, i.e who wrote it, when, the intended readership and the geo-political circumstances of the time. so should you, BTW.
"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 107 by iano, posted 06-07-2006 12:13 PM | | iano has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 117 by iano, posted 06-07-2006 5:01 PM | | Legend has replied |
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Legend
Member (Idle past 5033 days) Posts: 1226 From: Wales, UK Joined: 05-07-2004
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Message 126 of 238 (318884)
06-07-2006 6:48 PM
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Reply to: Message 117 by iano
06-07-2006 5:01 PM
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Post Of The Month
Legend writes: the step where a non-assuming person thinks "the word of God cannot be full of factual errors, internal inconsistencies and false prophecies, therefore the Bible isn't the word of God". iano writes: This presupposes a non-assuming person. The Bible says there are none so....the Bible cannot be shown to be full of factual errors and inconsistencies because it would take a non-assuming person to point that out and the Bible says there are none!! To me, this deserves a Post of The Month award. P.S have you heard of the term 'circular reasoning' ?
"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 117 by iano, posted 06-07-2006 5:01 PM | | iano has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 127 by iano, posted 06-07-2006 6:50 PM | | Legend has not replied |
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Legend
Member (Idle past 5033 days) Posts: 1226 From: Wales, UK Joined: 05-07-2004
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Message 129 of 238 (318889)
06-07-2006 7:01 PM
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Reply to: Message 117 by iano
06-07-2006 5:01 PM
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I rest my case.
iano writes: I have been fortunate. Things happened to me and THEN I went to find out what happened. The Bible describes it exactly, the Quran doesn't. Which to believe? if things haven't happened to you the way the Quran describes them it's because :
iano writes: Apparent inconsistancy can be laid aside for a time using the simple technique known as "pointing the finger at my own limitations in getting it and not supposing there to be an inconsistancy because of those limitations" it's because of YOUR limitations that you fail to see things are happening the way the Quran describes them . Once you get over your pre-diposition towards (fallen) critical thinking you'll see that things are happening exactly the way the Quran describes them. QED.
iano writes: I wonder what he would make of the Old Testaments Psalm 22 in general, verse 16 in particular...geopolitically speaking "For dogs have compassed me: A company of evil-doers have inclosed me; They pierced my hands and my feet."
damn... you got me there! I keep forgetting that Jesus was the only person ever to have been compassed by dogs, surrounded by evil-doers and crucified.
"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 117 by iano, posted 06-07-2006 5:01 PM | | iano has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 130 by iano, posted 06-07-2006 8:16 PM | | Legend has not replied | | | Message 132 by CK, posted 06-08-2006 5:35 AM | | Legend has replied |
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Legend
Member (Idle past 5033 days) Posts: 1226 From: Wales, UK Joined: 05-07-2004
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Message 133 of 238 (318999)
06-08-2006 7:39 AM
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Reply to: Message 132 by CK
06-08-2006 5:35 AM
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Re: I rest my case.
very interesting! it's as almost one could suggest that the KJV translators....(gasp).....changed the text, ever so slightly, to try and fit Jesus into it. and here I was thinking that this was the unchanging word of God!
"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 132 by CK, posted 06-08-2006 5:35 AM | | CK has not replied |
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Legend
Member (Idle past 5033 days) Posts: 1226 From: Wales, UK Joined: 05-07-2004
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Message 155 of 238 (319509)
06-09-2006 10:57 AM
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Reply to: Message 154 by iano
06-09-2006 9:42 AM
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Re: god and evil, again.
quote:
2Ki 21:12 Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Behold, I am bringing such evil upon Jerusalem and Judah, that whosoever heareth of it, both his ears shall tingle.
iano writes: God brings evil. This doesn't imply that the action of bringing it was evil. The objective is to bring about a stated result. Evil is a tool used to do this so...you're admitting that God does bring evil (albeit in order to do good)
iano writes: The action is not stated to be evil. Evil as a tool applied with a purpose in mind (a good purpose note: evil used to bring about good ..... The statement God "calls his actions evil" is not demonstrated by such passages. He brings about evil alright, but we would need something to say that the bringing itself was evil in order for your claim to hold true.
so it's very possible that Hitler, the Moors murderers, and Jeffrey Dahmers really used evil as a tool to further an ultimately good purpose. Their actions cannot be stated to be evil. After all, we don't know what the ultimate purpose of their actions was , so how can we brand them evil ?? I'm leaving now. I need to find a wall to bang my head against.
"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 154 by iano, posted 06-09-2006 9:42 AM | | iano has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 156 by iano, posted 06-09-2006 11:13 AM | | Legend has replied |
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Legend
Member (Idle past 5033 days) Posts: 1226 From: Wales, UK Joined: 05-07-2004
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Message 157 of 238 (319522)
06-09-2006 11:31 AM
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Reply to: Message 156 by iano
06-09-2006 11:13 AM
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Re: god and evil, again.
Legend writes: so it's very possible that Hitler, the Moors murderers, and Jeffrey Dahmers really used evil as a tool to further an ultimately good purpose.
iano writes: There is a fatal flaw in this line of reasoning. Can you spot it? I'm just following your line of reasoning. You asserted that although God brings evil he may be doing it for an ultimately good purpose, therefore we can't call him evil. you're not saying your logic is flawed, are you ?
Legend writes: Their actions cannot be stated to be evil
iano writes: I occurs to me that I could PotM this as a clear statement of moral relativism. But its not my style to haul a persons argument out of context if I can help it hey, I'm just seeing your logic through. Don't blame me if you don't like the conclusion of your syllogism.
iano writes: Spotting the fatal flaw above is a slightly less painful option
oh go on, help the dumb infidel out 
"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 156 by iano, posted 06-09-2006 11:13 AM | | iano has not replied |
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Legend
Member (Idle past 5033 days) Posts: 1226 From: Wales, UK Joined: 05-07-2004
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Message 161 of 238 (319560)
06-09-2006 1:45 PM
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Reply to: Message 159 by iano
06-09-2006 12:51 PM
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Re: god and evil, again.
iano writes: Which is different to our actions being evil in and of themselves. The reason for our actions being evil is that evil within causes the action to be an evil one. We have nothing however, to suppose evil in God causing his actions to be motivated by evil. If the action is not motivated by evil but good then how can the action of bringing on evil itself be said to be evil? [...the crowd on their feet applauding wildly] ...the Nadia Comaneci of Christian Literalists. Score: a perfect 10!
iano writes: If the action is not motivated by evil but good then how can the action of bringing on evil itself be said to be evil SO, like I said, we don't know the true motivation of Hitler, Moors murderers, et al. so it's totally unfair to call their actions evil, wouldn't you agree ?
"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 159 by iano, posted 06-09-2006 12:51 PM | | iano has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 163 by iano, posted 06-09-2006 5:52 PM | | Legend has replied |
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Legend
Member (Idle past 5033 days) Posts: 1226 From: Wales, UK Joined: 05-07-2004
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Message 170 of 238 (319661)
06-09-2006 7:06 PM
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Reply to: Message 163 by iano
06-09-2006 5:52 PM
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are we judging people on their actions orthe other way round?
iano writes: I see you didn't take up my advice to spot the flaw in your argument. So I'll tell you. Hitler isn't God. Your comparing a very large (under discusssion) apple with a known rotten pear. are you not getting it or just dodging ? it's about the principle you asserted
iano writes: If the action is not motivated by evil but good then how can the action of bringing on evil itself be said to be evil you're judging the actions based on the motivation. We know little about Hitler's real motivation. We know even less about Stalin's motivation. Or Attila the Hun's. Or this guy here. Therefore by your reasoning we cannot call these men's actions evil. Hitler wipes out 5 million people? His motivation was the good of the German people. Hitler didn't do evil. Psychopath kills and dismembers his parents ? His motivation was their salvation. He didn't do evil. God carries out genocide on scores of people, including women and babies. His motivation was good. He didn't do evil (despite the fact that he says he did). see how easy it is ?
iano writes: The reason for our actions being evil is that evil within causes the action to be an evil one. We have nothing however, to suppose evil in God causing his actions to be motivated by evil. Please tell me what do we have to suppose evil in Hitler/Stalin/Jeffrey Dahmer's actions ? How do we know they had 'evil within', as you call it ?
"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 163 by iano, posted 06-09-2006 5:52 PM | | iano has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 171 by iano, posted 06-09-2006 7:28 PM | | Legend has replied |
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Legend
Member (Idle past 5033 days) Posts: 1226 From: Wales, UK Joined: 05-07-2004
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Message 189 of 238 (319874)
06-10-2006 4:01 AM
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Reply to: Message 171 by iano
06-09-2006 7:28 PM
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Still banging head against brick wall
iano writes: As far as Hitler was concerned he was doing good. As far as we're concerned he was doing bad. Whose right? iano also writes: We have nothing however, to suppose evil in God causing his actions to be motivated by evil. you're still not getting (dodging) it. we have nothing to suppose evil in Hitler causing the Holocaust. The only reason we brand Hitler as evil is because of what he did. For all we know his motivation might have been ultimately good. We still brand him evil though because of his actions.
iano writes: In order to claim 'we' are you need to have a foundation on which to stand. What is it?
how about our godly attribute to tell good from evil ? "And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil." (GENESIS 3:22) so, we can tell good from evil like God does, we call God's actions evil , God himself calls his actions evil. The only person / divine entity who doesn't think God does evil is .........[drumroll]........iano, congratulations, you've won the 'only true Christian' award.
"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 171 by iano, posted 06-09-2006 7:28 PM | | iano has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 190 by CK, posted 06-10-2006 5:21 AM | | Legend has replied |
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Legend
Member (Idle past 5033 days) Posts: 1226 From: Wales, UK Joined: 05-07-2004
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Message 191 of 238 (319916)
06-10-2006 9:54 AM
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Reply to: Message 190 by CK
06-10-2006 5:21 AM
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Re: Still banging head against brick wall
CK writes: However many of us atheists DO believe in (strange as it sounds) taking the christian god at his word and therefore we must be true untrue true christians! LOL! too right! maybe it should be called 'the untrue Christian paradox' or something.
"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 190 by CK, posted 06-10-2006 5:21 AM | | CK has not replied |
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Legend
Member (Idle past 5033 days) Posts: 1226 From: Wales, UK Joined: 05-07-2004
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Message 204 of 238 (320592)
06-11-2006 5:23 PM
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Reply to: Message 201 by lfen
06-11-2006 4:55 PM
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Re: What is entailed in contradiction?
actually, given the false prophecies in Isaiah my money's on iano. It's a close call though.
"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 201 by lfen, posted 06-11-2006 4:55 PM | | lfen has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 206 by iano, posted 06-11-2006 5:35 PM | | Legend has not replied |
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