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Author Topic:   Evolution Logic
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 148 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 271 of 302 (320584)
06-11-2006 4:51 PM
Reply to: Message 270 by RAZD
06-11-2006 4:44 PM


Re: bump for SWC
i remember when "judicial activism" had a definition.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 270 by RAZD, posted 06-11-2006 4:44 PM RAZD has not yet responded

Percy
Member
Posts: 18491
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 272 of 302 (320585)
06-11-2006 4:52 PM
Reply to: Message 269 by arachnophilia
06-11-2006 4:25 PM


Re: bump for SWC
Not to change this into a discussion of Dover, but "what the di has to say about dover" is just the necessary spin they had to create in order to but the best face on an obvious defeat. Independent of the degree to which individual creationists buy into the spin, the Discovery Institute understands only too well how serious a defeat it was. And the fact that EvC Forum was inundated with a spate YEC arguments within a month after Dover after a couple years of increasing focus on ID is indicative of the breadth and scale of the defeat.

If you're expecting representatives of Discovery Institute to get up in public and state, "We accept that we were shown to be wrong in a fair legal fight," then just realize it ain't never going to happen. This is politics, and you never admit defeat in politics.

--Percy

Edited by Percy, : Fix spelling.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 269 by arachnophilia, posted 06-11-2006 4:25 PM arachnophilia has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 273 by RAZD, posted 06-11-2006 6:53 PM Percy has not yet responded
 Message 274 by arachnophilia, posted 06-11-2006 7:00 PM Percy has responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19878
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 273 of 302 (320610)
06-11-2006 6:53 PM
Reply to: Message 272 by Percy
06-11-2006 4:52 PM


Re: bump for SWC
To say nothing about the fact that if you are making a living selling shinola, you don't tell your marks that you are selling shinola. It's not just politics, it's a scam preying (heh) on the gullible.


Join the effort to unravel {AIDSHIV} with Team EvC! (click)

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand

RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


This message is a reply to:
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 148 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 274 of 302 (320613)
06-11-2006 7:00 PM
Reply to: Message 272 by Percy
06-11-2006 4:52 PM


Re: bump for SWC
If you're expecting representatives of Discovery Institute to get up in public and state, "We accept that we were shown to be wrong in a fair legal fight," then just realize it ain't never going to happen. This is politics, and you never admit defeat in politics.

yes, but people are obviously buying the spin. and we canot say for certain that the people who wrote that do not buy it themselves.

it may be an obvious to me and you, even from just their pathetic attempt to spin it, but evidently it's as obvious to everyone.


אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 272 by Percy, posted 06-11-2006 4:52 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 275 by Percy, posted 06-11-2006 7:38 PM arachnophilia has responded

Percy
Member
Posts: 18491
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 275 of 302 (320620)
06-11-2006 7:38 PM
Reply to: Message 274 by arachnophilia
06-11-2006 7:00 PM


Re: bump for SWC
arachnophilia writes:

yes, but people are obviously buying the spin. and we canot say for certain that the people who wrote that do not buy it themselves.

I think the significant increase we've seen in YECism here since Dover says that the general creationist community has largely abandoned ID. In reality they weren't even on board, because beyond the "God did it" part they just didn't understand most of it. Traditional creationists will always have a significant distrust of ID because it accepts many scientific positions that they find anathema, such as an old earth and a non-trivial role for evolution in life's history.

But ID held out the possibility for gaining a foothold in the educational war over evolution, and so they sat on the sidelines while the drama played out. Once the Dover decision was in, traditional creationists said to themselves, "Well, that didn't work, back to good old YECism!"

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by arachnophilia, posted 06-11-2006 7:00 PM arachnophilia has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 276 by arachnophilia, posted 06-11-2006 7:41 PM Percy has not yet responded

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 148 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 276 of 302 (320621)
06-11-2006 7:41 PM
Reply to: Message 275 by Percy
06-11-2006 7:38 PM


Re: bump for SWC
yes, you may be right. they seemed to have been pushing id as a way into schools -- now that that has failed, it's time to try something else.

i'm just not sure we can call it a defeat. do you call it a defeat when the invaders surrounding your castle fail to break down the back door?

Edited by arachnophilia, : removed quote. i'm sure people can follow directly sequential posts without me quoting percy's entire message...


אָרַח

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Lithodid-Man
Member (Idle past 1101 days)
Posts: 504
From: Juneau, Alaska, USA
Joined: 03-22-2004


Message 277 of 302 (320634)
06-11-2006 8:12 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by Someone who cares
06-11-2006 12:38 AM


Re: The essay -- the problems start at the very beginning.
SWC-

Got impatient and started the thread on your essay here:
www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=11&t=249&m=1 -->www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=11&t=249&m=1">http://www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=11&t=249&m=1

Look forward to hearing from you.


Doctor Bashir: "Of all the stories you told me, which were true and which weren't?"
Elim Garak: "My dear Doctor, they're all true"
Doctor Bashir: "Even the lies?"
Elim Garak: "Especially the lies"
This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by Someone who cares, posted 06-11-2006 12:38 AM Someone who cares has not yet responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19878
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 278 of 302 (320968)
06-12-2006 10:11 PM
Reply to: Message 268 by Percy
06-11-2006 4:10 PM


the micro- macro- considerations of rubber ducks
I don't disagree with a thing you're saying. I just think it makes sense to approach each discussion at a level of detail that the other side has a prayer of understanding.

I dispair of making things so simple that they don't mean anything anymore. There has to be an element of education involved for all those who are ignorant of the facts, and part of education is stretching people. "Comfort education" is watching TV ... too much so in america anyway.

I've been thinking about those definitions I threw out above in response to your comments:

"micro"evolution is the individual changes in species over time (and space), each change is a separate "micro"evolutionary event. This represents short term trends and fluctuations (larger beaks or smaller beaks etc), the change that occurs before speciation takes place.

"macro"evolution is the accumulation of changes over long periods of time, thus "macro"evolution is not the {change in species over time due to mutation and natural selection} but the {accumulation of changes incorporated into species by "micro"evolution ... and natural selection}. This represents long term trends - the change that continues (by continued "micro" changes) to occur once speciation has been achieved.


The more I think about it, the more it seems to me that it's more than that, it's also the difference between application at different levels:

(1) the individual level -- each individual is conceived with it's basic kit of mutations and the fitness of the individual is tested to survive to live and breed, those with non-lethal mutations live, those without disabling mutations survive and grow, those without disadvantageous mutations - and maybe a bit of luck - breed. This is where continued mutation and adaptation occur.

(2) the population level -- the population is made up of individuals with a wide variety of mutations, adaptations and abilities, and the dynamics of interactions of the members of the population in reaction to the environmental pressures is where change versus stasis tendencies are selected, this is where the dynamics of the different adaptations and abilities come into play, whether for survival or for breeding. It can only act on the basis of the net accumulation of mutations that are available.

Of course with this definition of "macro"evolution we have many many samples of transitions, not just in fossils but in recent past -- certainly there have been records of sequential speciation events in the last couple of years to say nothing of in the last 2000.

Certainly my example of Pelycodus above would qualify as "macro"evolution by this definition, as there are several speciation transitions in that section of the record before they even come to the separation of species into two distinct branches - that while very similar at that time - become the founding species of two different genus categories, the next level up from species in the taxonomic classification system.

From A Smooth Fossil Transition: Pelycodus, a primate (the article):



(click to enlarge)

(Picture originally from A Smooth Fossil Transition: Pelycodus, a primate (click to see original picture) -- copied here to save bandwidth on the original site)

The numbers down the left hand side indicate the depth (in feet) at which each group of fossils was found. As is usual in geology, the diagram gives the data for the deepest (oldest) fossils at the bottom, and the upper (youngest) fossils at the top. The diagram covers about five million years.

The numbers across the bottom are a measure of body size. Each horizontal line shows the range of sizes that were found at that depth. The dark part of each line shows the average value, and the standard deviation around the average.

The dashed lines show the overall trend. The species at the bottom is Pelycodus ralstoni, but at the top we find two species, Notharctus nunienus and Notharctus venticolus. The two species later became even more distinct, and the descendants of nunienus are now labeled as genus Smilodectes instead of genus Notharctus.


Kingdom
Phylum
Class
Order
Family
Genus
Species

The other aspect I see in this distinction is that "micro"evolutionary changes do not of themselves prevent breeding so they are all incorporated into the pool of the population where they spread or not depending on their dynamics within the population, while "macro"evolutionary changes are those that {separate\differentiate} populations by their {ability\interest} to breed (or not), and that once two (or more) populations do not mix to breed there is no barrier to the gradual accumulation of change over time such that they can become significantly (to us) different.

We can liken this to groups of rubber duckies:
Scientists track rubber toys ...

Back in 1992, a violent storm tossed 20 containers of rubber duckies off the back of a cargo ship halfway between China and Seattle, and they were quickly presumed lost at sea. Instead, it appears the castaways embarked on an epic 11-year swim across three oceans and half the globe. Somehow, they stayed afloat through all magnitude of wind and wave, weathering several winters likely frozen in an arctic ice floe and enduring so many days of exposure their once bright yellow skin has been bleached white as bone.

And now their voyage may have brought them to the East Coast.

Remnants of the lost armada of bath toys, which also includes frogs, beavers and turtles — nearly 29,000 in all — are thought to be streaming down the New England seaboard right now. Although there are no confirmed sightings in the Atlantic yet, oceanographers who have documented the movement of flotsam and ice from the Pacific to the Atlantic via the Arctic Ocean are confident some of the ducks ended up over here. A breakaway flotilla of ducks is expected to make landfall in Britain soon as well.

As long as they are in a container their locations will remain very similar, but as soon as they are no longer constrained by the container small differences in wind and wave and current can cause populations to diverge to opposite ends of the earth.

Enjoy.


Join the effort to unravel {AIDSHIV} with Team EvC! (click)

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand

RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 268 by Percy, posted 06-11-2006 4:10 PM Percy has not yet responded

Crue Knight
Inactive Member


Message 279 of 302 (320974)
06-12-2006 10:40 PM
Reply to: Message 254 by DrJones*
06-11-2006 1:43 AM


Re: Question!
DrJones* writes:

ok at the monkeys or any other animal. Why are they the same as they were thousands of years ago?

They aren't.

What are the differences? Have they gotten anymore advanced in the way they live?

DrJones* writes:

But if you look way back, this "theory" of evolution has no foundation.

You mean other than the fossil record and the genetic evidence?

We dont fully understand the fossil record fully. Half of what we see is based on someone's judgment.
Ex: If someone was a UFO fanatic, hw could create all kinds of theories about why they appear, ect. Then he sees a bunch of rusted material in a nearby field and inspects it. His mind of coarse will try to make it agree with his theories about UFOs. Does it mean it's true?
We see an ape or an old human skull, compare it to a "modern" human skull and make ideas about it. Then we date it with our dating methods, but how do you know it's tottally reliable? Possibly you can tell for the past hundred years, but millions!?

DrJones* writes:

If evolution promotes the "strongest" animals, why arent elephants, or gorrilas, or tigers wiser or smarter than us?

Cause evolution doesn't promote the strongest. The organisms that are best adapted to their ecological niche are the ones that survive.

I dont mean survival, I mean wise as in brains.
Why do we have moral judgment? Why do we wear clothing (besides being cold). Where did human embarassment from nakedness come from?

DrJones* writes:

Questions that stumps me.

Well, get an education.

I have a proper education, thank you. You cant look one way we gotta have open minds if we want to learn.

You ever wondered where matter come from?


Read "Time Has an End" by, H. Camping for great evdence that the Bible is true and the word of God. You can read it online at www.timehasanend.org
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Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 280 of 302 (320977)
06-12-2006 10:50 PM
Reply to: Message 279 by Crue Knight
06-12-2006 10:40 PM


Re: Question!
Where did human embarassment from nakedness come from?

You've never opened an issue of National Geographic, have you?


This message is a reply to:
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nwr
Member
Posts: 5585
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005


Message 281 of 302 (320978)
06-12-2006 10:56 PM
Reply to: Message 279 by Crue Knight
06-12-2006 10:40 PM


Re: Question!
Why do we have moral judgment?

We learned it from our parents and our peers.

Why do we wear clothing (besides being cold).

There are many cultures where no clothing is worn.

Where did human embarassment from nakedness come from?

From religion.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 279 by Crue Knight, posted 06-12-2006 10:40 PM Crue Knight has responded

Replies to this message:
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 Message 285 by Crue Knight, posted 06-12-2006 11:59 PM nwr has responded

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 148 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 282 of 302 (320980)
06-12-2006 11:02 PM
Reply to: Message 280 by crashfrog
06-12-2006 10:50 PM


Re: Question!
Where did human embarassment from nakedness come from?

You've never opened an issue of National Geographic, have you?

boy i tell you, before kids were sneakin' peaks at their father's playboys, they were sneakin' peaks at their father's national geographics.


אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by crashfrog, posted 06-12-2006 10:50 PM crashfrog has not yet responded

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 148 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 283 of 302 (320982)
06-12-2006 11:04 PM
Reply to: Message 281 by nwr
06-12-2006 10:56 PM


Re: Question!
Where did human embarassment from nakedness come from?

From religion.

well, in particular, the judeo-christian tradition contains an explanation of where bodily shame came from. it seems to me that this indicates it predates this particular religion.


אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 281 by nwr, posted 06-12-2006 10:56 PM nwr has responded

Replies to this message:
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nwr
Member
Posts: 5585
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005


Message 284 of 302 (320986)
06-12-2006 11:19 PM
Reply to: Message 283 by arachnophilia
06-12-2006 11:04 PM


Re: Question!
it seems to me that this indicates it predates this particular religion.

You are likely correct. I should have said that it comes from cultural traditions.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 283 by arachnophilia, posted 06-12-2006 11:04 PM arachnophilia has not yet responded

Crue Knight
Inactive Member


Message 285 of 302 (320993)
06-12-2006 11:59 PM
Reply to: Message 281 by nwr
06-12-2006 10:56 PM


Re: Question!
Why do we have moral judgment?

We learned it from our parents and our peers.

But where did it come from...if not the way the Bible says?

Where did human embarassment from nakedness come from?

From religion.

So does that mean there is another coincidence (besides the big bang coincidence of the earth life survived and we evolved) that religion (from the Bible) supports many correct scientific evidence such as:
The earth is round; The earth revolves around the sun; And many more??? Is it coincidently the works of man that his view of this earth was "mostly" if not all correct, then he tries to decieve others in his book bieng God's word?
Thats takes alot of faith to believe all those coincidences.


Read "Time Has an End" by, H. Camping for great evdence that the Bible is true and the word of God. You can read it online at www.timehasanend.org
This message is a reply to:
 Message 281 by nwr, posted 06-12-2006 10:56 PM nwr has responded

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