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Author Topic:   What Does the Second Coming Entail?
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 211 of 238 (320603)
06-11-2006 6:13 PM
Reply to: Message 209 by arachnophilia
06-11-2006 5:59 PM


Re: Good God!
Arach. You are better than this. That was irony aimed at a person who doesn't believe the Bible to be the word of God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by arachnophilia, posted 06-11-2006 5:59 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 213 by CK, posted 06-11-2006 6:32 PM iano has not replied
 Message 214 by arachnophilia, posted 06-11-2006 6:32 PM iano has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 212 of 238 (320604)
06-11-2006 6:29 PM
Reply to: Message 210 by iano
06-11-2006 6:11 PM


Re: Good God!
All God has to do in order to be God is to be capable of whatever he is capable of. No more. He does not have to be capable of simply anything at all anyone can dream up.
"lying" is not "simply anything at all anyone can dream up." it's a fairly standard thing, actually. it's not a logical contradiction -- like the "stone so big..." mental gymnatistics you're trying to sidetrack this discussion with.
I didn't say he lies. I say he doesn't. YOU say he is capable of it (or at least that must be inferred from your position that he is capable of simply anything at all).
yes, and you are conflating non-contradictory argument. "can" is not "does."
And the natural outworking of that is that you cannot trust what he says.
no, that is NOT the natural "outworking" of that at all. do you trust anyone, iano? remember, all humans are capable of lying, so you obviously cannot trust what anyone says. ever.
Because you cannot know if what he says about anything is true.
trust ≠ knowledge. trust = faith, with slightly more evidence.
Don't dodge the horns of the dilema you are impaled upon.
quote:
The logical fallacy of false dilemma (also known as falsified dilemma, fallacy of the excluded middle, black and white thinking, false dichotomy, false correlative, either/or dilemma or bifurcation), involves a situation in which two alternative points of view are held to be the only options, when in reality there exist one or more alternate options which have not been considered. The two alternatives presented are often, though not always, the two extreme points on some spectrum. Instead of such extreme simplification and wishful thinking, considering the whole spectrum, as in fuzzy logic, may be more appropriate.
False dilemma - Wikipedia
You cannot trust him as it stands.
I on the other hand, can.
and yet, you do not trust him when he says

I Create Evil.

We are both making assumptions in the end Arach. You assume that God cannot be trusted for you assume he is capable of lies.
quote:
A straw man argument is a rhetorical technique based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. To "set up a straw man" or "set up a straw-man argument" is to create a position that is easy to refute, then attribute that position to the opponent. A straw-man argument can be a successful rhetorical technique (that is, it may succeed in persuading people) but it is in fact misleading, since the argument actually presented by the opponent has not been refuted.
Straw man - Wikipedia
"capable of lies" does not mean "cannot be trusted." this is clearly evident by the fact that everyone you have ever trusted in your life is capable of lying.
Whatever. Any discussion based on your premise falls at the first fence "We don't know if God is lying or not" The only way you can discuss anything is to assume, like me, that he never does. And if you don't agree with me on this, watch me chase you around for a while asking "Arach, how do you know God is telling the truth here" To which you must respond "I assume he is" in order to progress.
no, YOU assume he is. that is enough to invalidate YOUR arguments. is you assume that god is incapable of lying, and that the bible is his word, then he MUST be telling the
I never said God was lying as a defence. That was you arguing that to question "I create evil" means that one is making God out to be a liar.
quotes god: "I create evil."
quotes iano: "evil does not come from God."
do you fail to see how these are incompatible possitions? you are directly contradicting the word of god, saying that it is incorrect -- a lie. unless, of course, it's simply an error.
I'm afraid I'm not. But I don't want to stab at you. I want you to see how ludicrous your position that God is capable of simply anything at all (which includes lying) is.
we're laughing at you, iano, because you don't know the difference between ability and action. "can" and "does" are still different words.
You will hopefully find that you must believe like me, that he always tells the truth - in order to discuss anything on this board.
again, false dilemma. who says that i don't believe that god always tells the truth?
one can have the ability to lie without the propensity to lie. the capability to lie does not mean that one always or even ever lies. just because someone can does not mean they cannot be trusted -- this is a ludicrous position in the extreme, and suggests that you have never, ever trusted another human being with anything in your life.
When we park this issue we can go back and look at "I create evil" with a view to discussing whether that means evil eminates from within God.
nearest i can tell is that you brought up this issue to distract from that very point.
Edited by arachnophilia, : broken tags


This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by iano, posted 06-11-2006 6:11 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 217 by iano, posted 06-11-2006 7:58 PM arachnophilia has replied

  
CK
Member (Idle past 4128 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 213 of 238 (320605)
06-11-2006 6:32 PM
Reply to: Message 211 by iano
06-11-2006 6:13 PM


dodge dodge delay delay
quote:
Isa 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Is this the literal word of God or not?
If it's not the literal word of god - where in the bible do you draw support for such a position?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by iano, posted 06-11-2006 6:13 PM iano has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 214 of 238 (320606)
06-11-2006 6:32 PM
Reply to: Message 211 by iano
06-11-2006 6:13 PM


Re: Good God!
Arach. You are better than this. That was irony aimed at a person who doesn't believe the Bible to be the word of God.
i don't think you know ringo well enough to be able to say that, iano.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by iano, posted 06-11-2006 6:13 PM iano has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 215 of 238 (320607)
06-11-2006 6:34 PM
Reply to: Message 208 by CK
06-11-2006 5:50 PM


Charles Knight: The Lurkers Saviour or Artful Dodger
Dodge dodge dodge....
I do - every time I (or someone else does) repeat the question and you dodge it, it erodes your credibility a little more and enhances your reputation as a dodger. It's a pretty clear strategy isn't it
You mentioned somewhere that your intention on this site was not to enter into debate but was instead to utilise some psycho-babble inspired headlines to head lurkers seeking information off at the pass. And you talk of credibility. My word!
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by CK, posted 06-11-2006 5:50 PM CK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 216 by CK, posted 06-11-2006 6:36 PM iano has not replied

  
CK
Member (Idle past 4128 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 216 of 238 (320608)
06-11-2006 6:36 PM
Reply to: Message 215 by iano
06-11-2006 6:34 PM


The lord creates evil - he said it, he did it.
Who needs psychobabble? Your inability to answer a straight forward question is pure gravy.
quote:
Isa 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Is this the literal word of God or not?
If it's not the literal word of god - where in the bible do you draw support for such a position?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by iano, posted 06-11-2006 6:34 PM iano has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 217 of 238 (320624)
06-11-2006 7:58 PM
Reply to: Message 212 by arachnophilia
06-11-2006 6:29 PM


Trust
nearest i can tell is that you brought up this issue to distract from that very point
You said evil eminates from within God. I said that a consequence of this was that God could lie and asked you did you agree with that. You agreed.
If that is the case then we cannot really discuss what God says in any meaningful way. For we have no more reason to suppose he is telling the truth than suppose he is lying.
Can tell lies doesn't mean Does tell lies. Granted
Can tell truth doesn't mean Does tell truth. Granted?
Its at this point you speak of trust. You speak of trusting humans. We can trust people alright, but given that they are all capable of lying means we cannot trust them to tell us the truth 100%. Nobody trusts another human 100% - for if they did, it would mean that that person could tell them to jump off a bridge "it'll be fine" and the trusting person would have to do it.
"No one I trust 100% would ask me such a thing" you might say. Meaning that you trust people more, the less they get you to do things that you think are crazy, stupid, unwise etc. That's not 100% trust - that's limiting options for being lied to - not an unwise thing to do.
In order to truly trust someone 100% we have to believe they cannot lie to us. That's total trust. And if someone cannot lie then evil cannot eminate from within them.
In order to discuss we must trust God to tell us the truth 100%. That means he cannot lie, which means evil cannot eminate from within him. There must be a way in which God can create evil without being evil himself. I gave an example of how that could be earlier - before we headed down this road.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by arachnophilia, posted 06-11-2006 6:29 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 220 by arachnophilia, posted 06-11-2006 8:30 PM iano has replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4678 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 218 of 238 (320629)
06-11-2006 7:59 PM
Reply to: Message 207 by iano
06-11-2006 5:47 PM


Re: Getting very off-topic!
Irrelevant whether God tells the truth or not? Poppycock. Thats fuzzy thinking on a par with the Ringo-position of denying that the bible is (at least for the sake of discussion )"the word of God"
Ian,
I see the source of your dilemma in your bibliolotry. You have to reconcile not only God but the diverse collection of scrolls assembled into the Bible, with your own theological demands that the Bible be logically consistent and non contradictory, which it isn't. The defense of this gets more complicated as you move from position to position. If you make it complicated enough you lose track of where you were and can then once again imagine the collections of writings that comprise the Bible are entirely consistent.
Unless and until you find some other position to view life other than literalism you will be gyrating in this elaborate and dizzying dance.
It only looks like bad news that literalism doesn't work. It's actually good news but it means you have to go beyond relying on verbal formulations to something more real.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by iano, posted 06-11-2006 5:47 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 219 by iano, posted 06-11-2006 8:09 PM lfen has not replied
 Message 221 by arachnophilia, posted 06-11-2006 8:35 PM lfen has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 219 of 238 (320633)
06-11-2006 8:09 PM
Reply to: Message 218 by lfen
06-11-2006 7:59 PM


Re: Getting very off-topic!
Unless and until you find some other position to view life other than literalism you will be gyrating in this elaborate and dizzying dance.
Sorry if it makes your head spin. Me? I'm fine
Have you anything of substance to say Lfen? Then by all means pull up a stool and case a spell.
Evil eminating from God?
God capable of lying?
I'm quite happy to quit amusing myself with CK and spend some more possibly fruitful time with yourself.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by lfen, posted 06-11-2006 7:59 PM lfen has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 222 by arachnophilia, posted 06-11-2006 8:37 PM iano has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 220 of 238 (320635)
06-11-2006 8:30 PM
Reply to: Message 217 by iano
06-11-2006 7:58 PM


Re: Trust
You said evil eminates from within God. I said that a consequence of this was that God could lie and asked you did you agree with that. You agreed.
so your argument is as follows:
god can do evil, therefore god can god. god can lie, therefore he's not telling the truth about doing evil.
seriously, you should try out for olympic gymnastics.
If that is the case then we cannot really discuss what God says in any meaningful way. For we have no more reason to suppose he is telling the truth than suppose he is lying.
faith ≠ reason.
Its at this point you speak of trust. You speak of trusting humans. We can trust people alright, but given that they are all capable of lying means we cannot trust them to tell us the truth 100%. Nobody trusts another human 100% - for if they did, it would mean that that person could tell them to jump off a bridge "it'll be fine" and the trusting person would have to do it.
this is all well and good, but if god came down in person and told you to go jump off a bridge, you'd not only question him, but question if he was god. and you claim to trust god 100%.
"No one I trust 100% would ask me such a thing" you might say. Meaning that you trust people more, the less they get you to do things that you think are crazy, stupid, unwise etc. That's not 100% trust - that's limiting options for being lied to - not an unwise thing to do.
on the contrary, trusting someone often involves doing things you're not sure about personally.
In order to truly trust someone 100% we have to believe they cannot lie to us. That's total trust.
no such condition exists, because the human mind is incapable of it. one needs only read the bible to see that mankind is almost always stubborn, doubting, questioning, and untrusting of god.
And if someone cannot lie then evil cannot eminate from within them.
and yet, we have
quote:
Isa 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness:
I make peace, and create evil:
I the LORD do all these things.
In order to discuss we must trust God to tell us the truth 100%.
your trust is more than enough to demonstrate the fallacy of your own position.
That means he cannot lie, which means evil cannot eminate from within him.
on the contrary, if he cannot lie, then evil has to eminate from him, because he said so and he must be telling the truth.
it is you who is untrusting of god's word here, not me.
There must be a way in which God can create evil without being evil himself.
again, strawman. no one said "god is evil." i said "god does evil" and "god creates evil" and "god knows evil" and "god thinks evil." these are very well demonstrated by his own words in the bible. if you believe he is incapable of lying, THEN IT MUST BE TRUE!
I gave an example of how that could be earlier - before we headed down this road.
one that completely mangled the english language, and required that the literal meaning of the text be untrue (ie: A LIE).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by iano, posted 06-11-2006 7:58 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 223 by iano, posted 06-11-2006 8:51 PM arachnophilia has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 221 of 238 (320636)
06-11-2006 8:35 PM
Reply to: Message 218 by lfen
06-11-2006 7:59 PM


Re: Getting very off-topic!
Unless and until you find some other position to view life other than literalism you will be gyrating in this elaborate and dizzying dance.
It only looks like bad news that literalism doesn't work.
iano's problem is not literalism. he chooses to call it literalism, but we cannot get him to read the words that are the page in a literal fashion.
thus the giant letters.
real literalism is fine. it is a perfectly valid (and imho correct) way to read the bible. but what the fundamentalists are calling "literalism" is in fact re-interpretation, and an attempt to make the bible appear factual. true literalism yeilds the obvious result you refer to above: the bible is a collection of documents, which often disagree.
you cannot read both "god creates evil" and "god does not create evil" literally and come to a conclusion other than that they contradict each other.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by lfen, posted 06-11-2006 7:59 PM lfen has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 222 of 238 (320637)
06-11-2006 8:37 PM
Reply to: Message 219 by iano
06-11-2006 8:09 PM


Re: Getting very off-topic!
Evil eminating from God?
quote:
Isa 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness:
I make peace, and create evil:
I the LORD do all these things.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 219 by iano, posted 06-11-2006 8:09 PM iano has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 223 of 238 (320641)
06-11-2006 8:51 PM
Reply to: Message 220 by arachnophilia
06-11-2006 8:30 PM


Re: Trust
How does God create evil Arach?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by arachnophilia, posted 06-11-2006 8:30 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 224 by arachnophilia, posted 06-11-2006 9:06 PM iano has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 224 of 238 (320643)
06-11-2006 9:06 PM
Reply to: Message 223 by iano
06-11-2006 8:51 PM


Re: Trust
how does god create anything.
if i knew, i'd be god.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 223 by iano, posted 06-11-2006 8:51 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 225 by iano, posted 06-11-2006 9:22 PM arachnophilia has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 225 of 238 (320644)
06-11-2006 9:22 PM
Reply to: Message 224 by arachnophilia
06-11-2006 9:06 PM


Re: Trust
You don't know how he does it. Which means you don't know if he can do it in a way which doesn't necessitate him being capable of evil himself. Yet you say he is capable of evil
How so?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 224 by arachnophilia, posted 06-11-2006 9:06 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 226 by arachnophilia, posted 06-11-2006 9:23 PM iano has replied

  
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