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Author | Topic: What Does the Second Coming Entail? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
iano Member (Idle past 1968 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
Arach. You are better than this. That was irony aimed at a person who doesn't believe the Bible to be the word of God.
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1371 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
All God has to do in order to be God is to be capable of whatever he is capable of. No more. He does not have to be capable of simply anything at all anyone can dream up. "lying" is not "simply anything at all anyone can dream up." it's a fairly standard thing, actually. it's not a logical contradiction -- like the "stone so big..." mental gymnatistics you're trying to sidetrack this discussion with.
I didn't say he lies. I say he doesn't. YOU say he is capable of it (or at least that must be inferred from your position that he is capable of simply anything at all). yes, and you are conflating non-contradictory argument. "can" is not "does."
And the natural outworking of that is that you cannot trust what he says. no, that is NOT the natural "outworking" of that at all. do you trust anyone, iano? remember, all humans are capable of lying, so you obviously cannot trust what anyone says. ever.
Because you cannot know if what he says about anything is true. trust ≠ knowledge. trust = faith, with slightly more evidence.
Don't dodge the horns of the dilema you are impaled upon. quote: You cannot trust him as it stands. I on the other hand, can. and yet, you do not trust him when he says I Create Evil. We are both making assumptions in the end Arach. You assume that God cannot be trusted for you assume he is capable of lies. quote: "capable of lies" does not mean "cannot be trusted." this is clearly evident by the fact that everyone you have ever trusted in your life is capable of lying.
Whatever. Any discussion based on your premise falls at the first fence "We don't know if God is lying or not" The only way you can discuss anything is to assume, like me, that he never does. And if you don't agree with me on this, watch me chase you around for a while asking "Arach, how do you know God is telling the truth here" To which you must respond "I assume he is" in order to progress. no, YOU assume he is. that is enough to invalidate YOUR arguments. is you assume that god is incapable of lying, and that the bible is his word, then he MUST be telling the
I never said God was lying as a defence. That was you arguing that to question "I create evil" means that one is making God out to be a liar. quotes god: "I create evil."quotes iano: "evil does not come from God." do you fail to see how these are incompatible possitions? you are directly contradicting the word of god, saying that it is incorrect -- a lie. unless, of course, it's simply an error.
I'm afraid I'm not. But I don't want to stab at you. I want you to see how ludicrous your position that God is capable of simply anything at all (which includes lying) is. we're laughing at you, iano, because you don't know the difference between ability and action. "can" and "does" are still different words.
You will hopefully find that you must believe like me, that he always tells the truth - in order to discuss anything on this board. again, false dilemma. who says that i don't believe that god always tells the truth? one can have the ability to lie without the propensity to lie. the capability to lie does not mean that one always or even ever lies. just because someone can does not mean they cannot be trusted -- this is a ludicrous position in the extreme, and suggests that you have never, ever trusted another human being with anything in your life.
When we park this issue we can go back and look at "I create evil" with a view to discussing whether that means evil eminates from within God. nearest i can tell is that you brought up this issue to distract from that very point. Edited by arachnophilia, : broken tags
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CK Member (Idle past 4155 days) Posts: 3221 Joined: |
quote: Is this the literal word of God or not? If it's not the literal word of god - where in the bible do you draw support for such a position?
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1371 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
Arach. You are better than this. That was irony aimed at a person who doesn't believe the Bible to be the word of God. i don't think you know ringo well enough to be able to say that, iano.
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iano Member (Idle past 1968 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
Dodge dodge dodge.... I do - every time I (or someone else does) repeat the question and you dodge it, it erodes your credibility a little more and enhances your reputation as a dodger. It's a pretty clear strategy isn't it You mentioned somewhere that your intention on this site was not to enter into debate but was instead to utilise some psycho-babble inspired headlines to head lurkers seeking information off at the pass. And you talk of credibility. My word! Edited by iano, : No reason given.
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CK Member (Idle past 4155 days) Posts: 3221 Joined: |
Who needs psychobabble? Your inability to answer a straight forward question is pure gravy.
quote: Is this the literal word of God or not? If it's not the literal word of god - where in the bible do you draw support for such a position?
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iano Member (Idle past 1968 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
nearest i can tell is that you brought up this issue to distract from that very point You said evil eminates from within God. I said that a consequence of this was that God could lie and asked you did you agree with that. You agreed. If that is the case then we cannot really discuss what God says in any meaningful way. For we have no more reason to suppose he is telling the truth than suppose he is lying. Can tell lies doesn't mean Does tell lies. GrantedCan tell truth doesn't mean Does tell truth. Granted? Its at this point you speak of trust. You speak of trusting humans. We can trust people alright, but given that they are all capable of lying means we cannot trust them to tell us the truth 100%. Nobody trusts another human 100% - for if they did, it would mean that that person could tell them to jump off a bridge "it'll be fine" and the trusting person would have to do it. "No one I trust 100% would ask me such a thing" you might say. Meaning that you trust people more, the less they get you to do things that you think are crazy, stupid, unwise etc. That's not 100% trust - that's limiting options for being lied to - not an unwise thing to do. In order to truly trust someone 100% we have to believe they cannot lie to us. That's total trust. And if someone cannot lie then evil cannot eminate from within them. In order to discuss we must trust God to tell us the truth 100%. That means he cannot lie, which means evil cannot eminate from within him. There must be a way in which God can create evil without being evil himself. I gave an example of how that could be earlier - before we headed down this road.
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lfen Member (Idle past 4704 days) Posts: 2189 From: Oregon Joined: |
Irrelevant whether God tells the truth or not? Poppycock. Thats fuzzy thinking on a par with the Ringo-position of denying that the bible is (at least for the sake of discussion )"the word of God" Ian, I see the source of your dilemma in your bibliolotry. You have to reconcile not only God but the diverse collection of scrolls assembled into the Bible, with your own theological demands that the Bible be logically consistent and non contradictory, which it isn't. The defense of this gets more complicated as you move from position to position. If you make it complicated enough you lose track of where you were and can then once again imagine the collections of writings that comprise the Bible are entirely consistent. Unless and until you find some other position to view life other than literalism you will be gyrating in this elaborate and dizzying dance. It only looks like bad news that literalism doesn't work. It's actually good news but it means you have to go beyond relying on verbal formulations to something more real. lfen
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iano Member (Idle past 1968 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
Unless and until you find some other position to view life other than literalism you will be gyrating in this elaborate and dizzying dance. Sorry if it makes your head spin. Me? I'm fine Have you anything of substance to say Lfen? Then by all means pull up a stool and case a spell. Evil eminating from God? God capable of lying? I'm quite happy to quit amusing myself with CK and spend some more possibly fruitful time with yourself.
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1371 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
You said evil eminates from within God. I said that a consequence of this was that God could lie and asked you did you agree with that. You agreed. so your argument is as follows: god can do evil, therefore god can god. god can lie, therefore he's not telling the truth about doing evil. seriously, you should try out for olympic gymnastics.
If that is the case then we cannot really discuss what God says in any meaningful way. For we have no more reason to suppose he is telling the truth than suppose he is lying. faith ≠ reason.
Its at this point you speak of trust. You speak of trusting humans. We can trust people alright, but given that they are all capable of lying means we cannot trust them to tell us the truth 100%. Nobody trusts another human 100% - for if they did, it would mean that that person could tell them to jump off a bridge "it'll be fine" and the trusting person would have to do it. this is all well and good, but if god came down in person and told you to go jump off a bridge, you'd not only question him, but question if he was god. and you claim to trust god 100%.
"No one I trust 100% would ask me such a thing" you might say. Meaning that you trust people more, the less they get you to do things that you think are crazy, stupid, unwise etc. That's not 100% trust - that's limiting options for being lied to - not an unwise thing to do. on the contrary, trusting someone often involves doing things you're not sure about personally.
In order to truly trust someone 100% we have to believe they cannot lie to us. That's total trust. no such condition exists, because the human mind is incapable of it. one needs only read the bible to see that mankind is almost always stubborn, doubting, questioning, and untrusting of god.
And if someone cannot lie then evil cannot eminate from within them. and yet, we have
quote: In order to discuss we must trust God to tell us the truth 100%. your trust is more than enough to demonstrate the fallacy of your own position.
That means he cannot lie, which means evil cannot eminate from within him. on the contrary, if he cannot lie, then evil has to eminate from him, because he said so and he must be telling the truth. it is you who is untrusting of god's word here, not me.
There must be a way in which God can create evil without being evil himself. again, strawman. no one said "god is evil." i said "god does evil" and "god creates evil" and "god knows evil" and "god thinks evil." these are very well demonstrated by his own words in the bible. if you believe he is incapable of lying, THEN IT MUST BE TRUE!
I gave an example of how that could be earlier - before we headed down this road. one that completely mangled the english language, and required that the literal meaning of the text be untrue (ie: A LIE).
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1371 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
Unless and until you find some other position to view life other than literalism you will be gyrating in this elaborate and dizzying dance. It only looks like bad news that literalism doesn't work. iano's problem is not literalism. he chooses to call it literalism, but we cannot get him to read the words that are the page in a literal fashion. thus the giant letters. real literalism is fine. it is a perfectly valid (and imho correct) way to read the bible. but what the fundamentalists are calling "literalism" is in fact re-interpretation, and an attempt to make the bible appear factual. true literalism yeilds the obvious result you refer to above: the bible is a collection of documents, which often disagree. you cannot read both "god creates evil" and "god does not create evil" literally and come to a conclusion other than that they contradict each other.
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1371 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
Evil eminating from God? quote:
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iano Member (Idle past 1968 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
How does God create evil Arach?
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1371 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
how does god create anything.
if i knew, i'd be god.
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iano Member (Idle past 1968 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
You don't know how he does it. Which means you don't know if he can do it in a way which doesn't necessitate him being capable of evil himself. Yet you say he is capable of evil
How so?
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