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Author Topic:   Opinions and conclusions about Religion and God.
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 13 of 280 (320961)
06-12-2006 9:48 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by crashfrog
06-12-2006 7:53 PM


Re: Crash's entirely predictable thoughts on the subject
i don't mean to start any arguments here, nor do i mean to contradict your point, but:
2) Religion stems from the fact that, in a busy day, people don't have time to puzzle out all the big issues. Religion is a way of kind of skipping to the end of the novel - substituting someone else's mental labor for your own. And, hey, who doesn't do that? I only start to have a problem with it when people refuse to ever engage their own thinking process on any issue that they think their religion has covered.
this isn't neccessarily always the case. i can tell you that for me, religion has raised nothing but questions. my life and my philosophy was much easier as an athiest.
but i am not the rule, i am the exception.
(i might post my own statement later. i haven't decided.)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by crashfrog, posted 06-12-2006 7:53 PM crashfrog has not replied

Replies to this message:
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 19 of 280 (320979)
06-12-2006 10:58 PM


two old posts of mine
my faith is anything but simple. often, i'm accused of not being a true christian by some of the more fundamentalist members. i'd like to make another post regarding my life before christianity, my conversion, and my continuing stuggles afterward. i'd like to make a post that documents, if only in generalities, my path and my doubts. i'd like to address some recent issues, too, like the good/evil question (as iano is obviously confused as all hell regarding what i believe), and my position on and study of the bible.
but this is going to take more than one post to accomplish. for the moment, allow me to fly my (former) fundamentalist colors, and repost two of my old posts that i think sum up an important bit or two of my ideology. this first post could have had more biblical support, namely my prominent and repeated use of large sections of matthew 5. but it clearly and simply states my position:
quote:
"a christian by any other name"

Calling the killers Christians is as easy as saying that Christians are on a crusade now to wipe out muslims. That is not true. Certainly not missionaries. The bad guys were not the missionaries or genuine Christians. Whether you like to call them Christians or not.
if we are judged to be christians or "not christians" by the heinousness of our deeds, then we will all fall far short of the mark.
rather, we are defined by our belief. it is our faith that makes us christians, and our faith (and the grace of god) that saves us. all of us.
if we think their actions demonstrate their lack of genuine belief, then we will be held to same standards. and all of our errors and shortcomings and failures will be held against us as evidence that we do not truly believe what we say. we do believe -- but we are human, and we fail, and we sin nonetheless.
http://EvC Forum: Open Question For Jerry Falwell (and those who agree with him)
you can find similar ideas, at length, in my great debate with riverrat, when the subject turns to christianity and homosexuality. this next post got me a potm nomination. it hints at some doubts, and my problem with reconciling my christianity with my oddly jewish perspective. but here, i find something that might be termed common ground, though told in obviously christian language.
quote:
"faith"

Now please remember that I said "ONE aspect." He certainly is a shelter.
now, when jesus was alive and well, i'm sure he could have fixed the hole in my roof. i hear he was good with his hands. but faith in god doesn't stop the rain from getting in.
don't me wrong. i'm not saying faith is a bad thing, or that jesus can't provide a lot of psychological and spiritual help. but you said "practical." that implies a simple and down-to-earth use, not lofty spiritual ideals. a practical shelter is four walls and a roof made of solid material.
You see Arachnophilia I have sinned. I need justification through the redemption of Christ.
what would jesus say?
i'm not so sure about this angry god idea, where he's out to get us and punish us for our misdeeds. that's sure not the god jesus talked about. he refered to god has a father who lost a son, and rejoiced on his return. he refered to god as a bride missing part of her head-dress, diligently searching for it. he described god as shepherd who left the 99 sheep to find the one that fell behind. he told us that god loves us, and looks after us.
that's the god i believe in. not this "wages of sin is death" stuff. i cherish my relationship with my god, not mourn it, or constantly remind him how bad i am. i don't think he cares, i think he loves me (and you) in spite of that. i don't think god's love comes with conditions, especially not ones we can't meet by design.
http://EvC Forum: Genesis 1:1-3
the curious point -- as i'm sure that more fundamentalist members noticed right away -- is that it explains christianity without touching on the standards of salvation by faith, or the death/resurrection of christ. it also casts a lot of doubt, specifically, on pauline christianity, and paul's epistles. i do not feel now, nor have i ever felt, that they properly represented the life and death of christ.
i think i'll explain some of the intricacies of this positions a little later, and the bits that are mysteriously missing.


Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Rob, posted 06-12-2006 11:38 PM arachnophilia has replied
 Message 24 by RickJB, posted 06-13-2006 7:03 AM arachnophilia has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 32 of 280 (321114)
06-13-2006 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Rob
06-12-2006 11:38 PM


Re: two old posts of mine
The evil Devil screws us up and then we make peoples lives miserable, and they end up insecure and screw other peoples lives up etc. It's a viscious cycle of evil. And the only escape is to acknowledge the truth. And the truth is Christ! (sorry I'm babbling)
i don't believe in the devil. i believe in ha-satan, who is angel of the lord that tests, tempts, and prosecutes mankind. but he cannot act without the permission and authority (or direction) of god.
god loves us, and takes care of us. what need we fear of some devil?
It's terribly ironic that Christians are perceived as judgemental. it is exactly the opposite! And as you said Spiderman, not all people are really Christians, but how do you know which are?
that's not what i said. in fact, i said the exact opposite. i said that what defines us as christian is our profession of faith. and actually, i'm not even terribly sure that matters at all. does the son have to apologize for the father to forgive him?
Jesus said to not try to pick them out. Only He can know that, and in the end He will seperate the sheep from the goats. I personally live in fear that I am a goat most of the time. some of my good brothers and sisters tell me that is a sure sign I'm a sheep. So... a lot of this stuff is exactly the opposite of what it appears.
the use of fear to control people is a terrible crime of the fundamentalist church. i speak from experience here, not condemnation. you have nothing to be afraid of. god loves you, and forgives you. and you certainly believe that faith is the requirement for salvation -- and you have faith.
god takes care of the birds of the air and lilies of the field. what do we have to worry about?
I want to make one thing clear right now... Everyone is a fundamentalist! If you have a conviction about anything at all, such as 1+1=2 then I rest my case. To hold an opinion at all requires that you believe in something absolutely! Even if you absolutely refuse to commit and sit on the fence, you will probably be the type who says, 'No-one can know the truth! Well, that is also a fundamentalist statement.
i really wish you drop this. it's quite a silly argument. "that there are no absolutes is an absolute statement" is the logical equivalent of "can god make a stone so big that even he cannot lift it?"


This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Rob, posted 06-12-2006 11:38 PM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Rob, posted 06-13-2006 3:15 PM arachnophilia has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 45 of 280 (321191)
06-13-2006 4:52 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Rob
06-13-2006 3:15 PM


Re: two old posts of mine
I agree with the second half of your comment. God allows Him to exist.
i think god does more than allow. god commands.
Evil proves what is good by way of it's consequences to relationships.
i say evil is what defines good (and vice versa). god creates by making divisions: earth from sky, light from dark, good from evil.
I part with you on the first half. Satan was an angel of God,
i know the myth of which you speak. i say "myth" because it is not found anywhere in the bible at all. just obscure references that people have been reading way out of context.
but all of God's creatures (at least angels and Humans) are given free will.
interestingly, it is ha-satan that allows this particular concept, and makes our choices for the good meaningful. what would it mean to be a christian, if there was nothing else to choose?
We need to ask for forgiveness, because in order to do it, we have to acknowledge the truth (that we are corrupt) so that we can see... It is for our benefit and opens the flood gates of knowledge through true humility and open-mindedness to Gods voice.
also, not what i said. why do we need to ask for forgiveness? you say god is bigger than that -- which i believe.
i agree about it being for our benefit.
the use of fear to control people is a terrible crime of the fundamentalist church
This is patently untrue in the sense used today. Fear is one of the most legitimate ways to enlighten and evoke thought.
If I tell someone to not jump out of an airplane because they will die without a parachute, is that motivating by fear? Absolutely! And it works every time.
i have problems with the usage of christianity as "hell insurance." i don't like it, in the slightest. my personal experience has been that it is part of what i have termed "the christian guilt cycle." it's part of the unhealthy philosophy that leads to back-and-forth of "backsliding" and revival. cults use similar methods and similar cycles to enforce and increase continued membership. they teach fear of the outside world, and fear of extreme punishment, and then control people using guilt.
i feel very strongly that this behaviour does not belong in the church of christ, who brought hope, and light, and compassion to the world. i think it is an utter perversion of his teachings.
Telling someone that they are a sinner is not a judgement.
the fundamental message behind "judge not" and similar verses is that we are to do to other as we'd like done to us -- we're to put ourselves in their shoes, empathize, and try to see things from their perspective. and people, well, don't like being called sinners. whether you mean it as condemnation or not, they see it that way. you will find that there are better and more effective ways to evangelize than making people feel attacked.
and frankly, i don't believe it belongs in the church, either. humility, yes. but not goinging around telling people they're rotten individuals doesn't help. again, i don't think that's the message christ had in mind.
Admit that our penalty is just.
what penalty? we have been made free.
Of course He can.. but He dosen't do stupid things. He did in the sense that He gave us free will.
do you believe in a less-than-omnipotent god?
this is a legitimate question, and one i haven't decided for myself. it seems to me that god has (or had) the power make himself not-god. and it seems to me that in order to allow free will -- god cannot be omnipotent. otherwise, everything we do is by his will, not ours.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Rob, posted 06-13-2006 3:15 PM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Rob, posted 06-13-2006 6:38 PM arachnophilia has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 51 of 280 (321310)
06-14-2006 12:48 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Rob
06-13-2006 6:38 PM


Re: two old posts of mine
Well, it appears that we are not going to agree on some things.
no, of course not. nor do i expect it. i recognize that i'm the abnormal one here, too.
However, the denial of fact, or the inability to accept a reasonable and logical argument is always motivated by ego and fear.
as i said previsouly, my personal experience with fundamentalism (having been to nearly every kind of christian church short of the one that involves drinking poison and dancing with snakes, and catholic mass) is that fear plays far, far too large a role in it.
i see that fear of the outside world is commonly taught. "world" has a different connotation when uttered from a pulpit than when used by common folk. i see decisions to accept christ out of fear of hell. i see what we've come to call bibolatry out of fear for lack of meaning. this last one in particular shows its ugly head quite regularly here. it's bad enough that it seems the average fundamentalist no longer understands what reason or logic is. again, personal experience. i don't mean to condemn anyone, but i do feel that many churches are victimizing their followers.
That being said, the most offensive thing anyone could say to the fear and ego driven heart is, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except by me."
such a statement is actually the definition of ego. and, i'm sure this will really make our differences obvious, i don't like the portrayal of jesus in the book of john. he walks around saying things like this.
while i believe that jesus is the way, the truth, and life -- and that we come to father by him -- walking around preaching the glories of yourself hardly sounds like the humble jesus i know and love.
quote:
A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher.
c.s. lewis is well respected, i know. but he makes a number of faulty arguments in this rather famous and oft-quoted passage. for starters, the kinds of claims that jesus makes in john (to which he is undoubtably refering) are not neccessarily compatible with sorts of things that happen in the synoptic gospels. with the other three have their little disagreements, by and large, john is the odd man out.
the portrayal of jesus in the other three gospels lacks most (if not all) of the wild things lewis uses. that picture of christ is just fine as a very human moral teacher.
quote:
or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God.
since christ appeared in human form, as a human, he was made in the image of god. worshipping something made in the image of god -- even the son of god himself -- breaks the first commandment. we should worship the same person jesus prayed to gethsemane, and the same person he directed the lord's prayer at: our father.
quote:
But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.
this is a point that, unfortunately for lewis, is demonstrably wrong. jesus, throughout the gospels, refers to himself as the "the son of man." the hebrew (which you might have noticed that i know a little) "son" (or ben) implies a family relationship, but not always a direct son. so christ is saying, literally, that he's one of us. a human, descended from adam.
but there's more to it than that. "son of man" appears elsewhere in the bible. and i'm not refering to the one reference in daniel that's taken out of context. though you might understand what it means after this. "son of man" is found throughout the book of ezekiel. it is how god addresses his prophet. the implication is that god is big and powerful, and ezekiel (the son of man) is a "lowly mortal." indeed, "son of man" means the exact opposite of "god."
quote:
---C.S. Lewis, 'Mere Christiantiy'
i blame tolkien for this. it's all his fault.
i'm gonna ignore the john references. because, as i said, i feel they are out of place. john's a tad on the gnostic side.
quote:
Jesus said, ”Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division(Luke 12:51).
i've always read this to be highly ironic. if you think about it, it's true. how many families have fallen apart because the christian parents refuse to accept their gay children? how many parents scoff at the their children for their newfound religion? how many brothers go to war against one another over religion? look at crusades -- done in the name of christ.
i think christ was smart enough to understand that he was a revolutionary.
Now, many claim and make an interesting point now and then that Jesus’ words were manipulated and mistranslated. I disagree, for no texts have been protected like the Cannon of scripture.
i hate to be totally contradictory here, but you might want to look into the history of the new testament a little more deeply. you'll find, for instance, that earlier versions of the synoptic gospels agree a lot less than newer ones. it turns out that scribes often fudged the details a little to get things to line up.
mistranslated, though? probably not. misinterpretted? quite common place.
I believe that He did in fact say all of these outrageous and incredible things. It is why He was crucified.
quite.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Rob, posted 06-13-2006 6:38 PM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by Rob, posted 06-15-2006 1:59 AM arachnophilia has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 52 of 280 (321319)
06-14-2006 1:16 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by RickJB
06-13-2006 7:03 AM


Re: two old posts of mine
Are you from a conservative part of the US?
south florida.
i realize that wasn't a "yes" or a "no."
Perhaps you should seek out your local friendly branch of the C-of-E! :-)
nah, tried that. thanks though.


This message is a reply to:
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 108 of 280 (321728)
06-15-2006 3:14 AM
Reply to: Message 107 by Rob
06-15-2006 1:59 AM


Re: two old posts of mine
I personally find that John is the most revealing of the Gospels.
it says things that are true, but not in a quality that i like. as i said, something about christ preaching himself doesn't sit right with my view of him as a humble prophet and martyr -- and sacrifice.
Very few are interested in what He really was, and that is God...
son of god.
I strongly hear what the Apostle Paul is saying, and I don't dicount anything in scripture. I believe the whole Bible. That doesn't mean I can answer all of the very difficult questions that people raise. The details are unending.
and faith-testing. like you wouldn't believe. but everyone discounts something in the bible. i try to be honest about what do and don't like. but for instance, christianity as a matter of practice discounts leviticus, and the kosher laws. we feel they have been lifted, because we are under a new covenant. have you ever even read leviticus? ...or numbers? half of numbers is mind-numbingly dull.
I totally agree with you about some churches being false and victimizing people. The lifting of snakes is a perfect example. But I do understand it's proper interpretation:
The serpents are lies... demonic in origin. The poison is the wine(so to speak) of the false prophets. The christians job is to clear the bushes (the lies) and uproot them, all the while ingesting the deadly falsehoods and being unharmed, because they are so easy to see for the seeing. The goal is to give an unobstructed view of Christ.
yeah, i don't know about that. they are, however, following the direct commandment of the bible:
quote:
Mar 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
There are any number of way to say the same thing as I just mixed metaphors in my interpretation. The Bible is full of metaphor like that, not to mention parables.
yes, but,
It is like encryption. You need the code to understand it, and the code is the Spirit of God.
no. in my educated opinion, i whole-heartedly disagree. there is nothing encrypted in the bible. there some more metaphorical meanings, and some passages that are metaphor (parables), but i do not see that there is anything hidden from the average reader. everything is fairly plain to see -- the only time anything seems hidden from anyone is when i am dealing with some of the fundamentalists on this board. take my last two debates with iano, constantly trying to get him to agree to the words on the page. it's very frustrating to try to debate with people who do not wish to see past their assumptions.
if there is a spirit involved in that case, it's one of deception and not of god.
I find a lot of the Old Testament stories of battle and war, are direct examples of the spiritual war we face today. In those stories are tremendous lessons and confirmation and encouragement almost with a wink and a nod. In other words, the stories themselves seem to make no sense, but their true meaning is elsewhere. It is a supernatural experience to catch a glimpes of that revelation.
i think that the more you understand the stories themselves, the more you will understand what is built on top of them. the literal is the foundation: you have to get that right first. a crooked foundation results in a crooked building.
After being born again and in a very short time, it was as though the whole Bible was revealed to me as one grid. Not a lot of details, I just understood it. Very difficult to explain and not very logical. Just Divine revelation!
i find this is part of the "honeymoon" with christianity. we all go through it, not everyone comes back home. trust me, i thought i understood too. i didn't. i had no idea. we think we do, because the bible is such an integral part of our culture -- but we never stop to look at it through the eyes of the people who wrote it.
for instance, we all know the story of adam's apple. it's a small example, but it's not in the bible. even a moderately good literal reading will demonstrate that it could not have been an apple, either. we have lots of stories like this in our oral traditions regarding the bible and christianity -- and few of them are actually in the bible. for instance, the one you mentioned earlier, the fall of satan, is not. it's in milton's "paradise lost" and a few similar works. it's in some apocryphal texts (though varied highly). but it's nowhere in the bible. yet, we all "know" it, and it's often preached in church.
There is only one requirement to know God. That's one of the many things that made Jesus unique... So many today preach (falsely) that we cannot know the truth. Jesus said flatly you will know the truth. And the requirement is to give over total control of your life to him.
well, the requirement was "ask."
"ask, and you will recieve. seek, and you will find."
we can know the truth. we just rarely want to.
Christianity is not a religion. It is reality! It's not about belief, it is about the blind having their sight restored.
christianity is a faith. it's a belief.
Faith? yes!... but not at all blind.
i'll go into this a bit more in depth in a later post. but the more i study, the more i find that there is less and less basis for christianity. not in judaism, not in history. it's very, very distressing to be faced with evidence like that.
faith, by definition, is blind. and this is no exception -- we are not given tangible proof. even spiritual proof is doubtful, at best, and easily explained by modern pyschology is nearly every case. the situation, nearest i can tell, has been especially rigged for this one question:
given nothing, will we follow?
Edited by arachnophilia, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Rob, posted 06-15-2006 1:59 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by Rob, posted 06-16-2006 1:46 AM arachnophilia has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 127 of 280 (322041)
06-15-2006 8:01 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by nator
06-15-2006 7:52 PM


Re: Not a Problem.
that's funny on so many different levels.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by nator, posted 06-15-2006 7:52 PM nator has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 133 of 280 (322108)
06-16-2006 3:18 AM
Reply to: Message 130 by Rob
06-16-2006 1:46 AM


the definition of faith
Do you exist?
If so, how do you know when you don't know who you are or where here is???
to quote rene descartes, i think: therefore i am.
but seriously, stay away from post-modern philosophy classes. i know who i am to a reasonable degree of accuracy (i cannot count my atoms), and i know where i am to a reasonable degree of accuracy (i'm not entirely familiar with my location in the galaxy, but i can find my way around town).
"faith" that our observations are correct is not faith.
But that is faith, and it is not blind...
i know i mentioned above that i don't like john, but there's some fun stuff in it:
quote:
Jhn 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
that's the faith i mean.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by Rob, posted 06-16-2006 1:46 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by Rob, posted 06-16-2006 10:22 AM arachnophilia has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 136 of 280 (322226)
06-16-2006 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 135 by Rob
06-16-2006 10:22 AM


Re: the definition of faith
Everything we believe factual or not about Christ is faith...
exactly. we have not seen.
Edited by arachnophilia, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by Rob, posted 06-16-2006 10:22 AM Rob has not replied

  
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