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Author Topic:   Opinions and conclusions about Religion and God.
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 16 of 280 (320965)
06-12-2006 9:59 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by crashfrog
06-12-2006 9:52 PM


Re: Pipe Dreams...
Yeah, sounds like you're definately hitting some kind of pipe...
You couldn't possibly imagine.
But if you ever do... You'll know how Neo felt when he woke up in the real world. And you'll love the combat training. You'll be able to jump right inside the agents and they will explode!
The only catch is that you can only do it because the truth (Jesus) is the most powerful force in the universe. Not because you are smarter than the agents.
One must make that clear or it appears that all is ego driven. It is far less harmful to everyone, if they only think your utterly mad...
Edited by Rob, : harmless taunt
Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by crashfrog, posted 06-12-2006 9:52 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 17 of 280 (320966)
06-12-2006 10:03 PM


I'm just sharing in peace bro's
Not here to get into a spitting match this round. Just sharing my own conclusions and thoughts. I respect yours, we just disagree. I think I am able to reasonably show the thinking that results... If it doesn't make sense to you, then I am truely sorry, but I can't see how it was offensive???

  
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 18 of 280 (320973)
06-12-2006 10:25 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
06-12-2006 11:14 AM


You've nailed it...
Christ is the center of the Bible and no amount of excuse concerning an evil O.T. God or any other finger-pointing absolves any individual from dealin with the central question: (From Christ) Who do you say that I am?
That is the real issue isn't it? No mere man could say the things that He said. He is either the greatest deceiver of all time to date... Or, He is who He is!
I notice that Conservatives love to point at Liberals and yell foul!
Liberals at Conservatives...
Blacks at Whites...
Muslims at Jews...
So on and so forth... Everybody has a scape goat...
But what is our excuse?
We're all pointing fingers to avoid the hard thing. Looking in the mirror to see the real problem. And the problem is not with this man or that man. The problem is with man, and the problem is sin.
You're so right Phat... we need to love each other, and that begins with forgiving. Even before our enemies admit they need to be forgiven.
That is what our Lord did on the cross. 'While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.'
He is love! But love requires relationship. One cannot love himself as the world promotes today. That is lonelyness.
God is love because even before the creation of the world, God was a Being in realitonship. Father, Son, And Spirit.
They said, 'Let us create man in our image!'
We were meant to be body soul and Spirit in concert with our creator. We chose to be Gods of our own and gave up His Spirit. That is why we are slaves to our DNA and environment. That's what Richard Dawkins said...'We're all just dancing to our DNA, there's no such thing as right and wrong, we're just dancing to our DNA.
That is precisely why Christ said boldly, "You must be born again!"
Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 19 of 280 (320979)
06-12-2006 10:58 PM


two old posts of mine
my faith is anything but simple. often, i'm accused of not being a true christian by some of the more fundamentalist members. i'd like to make another post regarding my life before christianity, my conversion, and my continuing stuggles afterward. i'd like to make a post that documents, if only in generalities, my path and my doubts. i'd like to address some recent issues, too, like the good/evil question (as iano is obviously confused as all hell regarding what i believe), and my position on and study of the bible.
but this is going to take more than one post to accomplish. for the moment, allow me to fly my (former) fundamentalist colors, and repost two of my old posts that i think sum up an important bit or two of my ideology. this first post could have had more biblical support, namely my prominent and repeated use of large sections of matthew 5. but it clearly and simply states my position:
quote:
"a christian by any other name"

Calling the killers Christians is as easy as saying that Christians are on a crusade now to wipe out muslims. That is not true. Certainly not missionaries. The bad guys were not the missionaries or genuine Christians. Whether you like to call them Christians or not.
if we are judged to be christians or "not christians" by the heinousness of our deeds, then we will all fall far short of the mark.
rather, we are defined by our belief. it is our faith that makes us christians, and our faith (and the grace of god) that saves us. all of us.
if we think their actions demonstrate their lack of genuine belief, then we will be held to same standards. and all of our errors and shortcomings and failures will be held against us as evidence that we do not truly believe what we say. we do believe -- but we are human, and we fail, and we sin nonetheless.
http://EvC Forum: Open Question For Jerry Falwell (and those who agree with him)
you can find similar ideas, at length, in my great debate with riverrat, when the subject turns to christianity and homosexuality. this next post got me a potm nomination. it hints at some doubts, and my problem with reconciling my christianity with my oddly jewish perspective. but here, i find something that might be termed common ground, though told in obviously christian language.
quote:
"faith"

Now please remember that I said "ONE aspect." He certainly is a shelter.
now, when jesus was alive and well, i'm sure he could have fixed the hole in my roof. i hear he was good with his hands. but faith in god doesn't stop the rain from getting in.
don't me wrong. i'm not saying faith is a bad thing, or that jesus can't provide a lot of psychological and spiritual help. but you said "practical." that implies a simple and down-to-earth use, not lofty spiritual ideals. a practical shelter is four walls and a roof made of solid material.
You see Arachnophilia I have sinned. I need justification through the redemption of Christ.
what would jesus say?
i'm not so sure about this angry god idea, where he's out to get us and punish us for our misdeeds. that's sure not the god jesus talked about. he refered to god has a father who lost a son, and rejoiced on his return. he refered to god as a bride missing part of her head-dress, diligently searching for it. he described god as shepherd who left the 99 sheep to find the one that fell behind. he told us that god loves us, and looks after us.
that's the god i believe in. not this "wages of sin is death" stuff. i cherish my relationship with my god, not mourn it, or constantly remind him how bad i am. i don't think he cares, i think he loves me (and you) in spite of that. i don't think god's love comes with conditions, especially not ones we can't meet by design.
http://EvC Forum: Genesis 1:1-3
the curious point -- as i'm sure that more fundamentalist members noticed right away -- is that it explains christianity without touching on the standards of salvation by faith, or the death/resurrection of christ. it also casts a lot of doubt, specifically, on pauline christianity, and paul's epistles. i do not feel now, nor have i ever felt, that they properly represented the life and death of christ.
i think i'll explain some of the intricacies of this positions a little later, and the bits that are mysteriously missing.


Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Rob, posted 06-12-2006 11:38 PM arachnophilia has replied
 Message 24 by RickJB, posted 06-13-2006 7:03 AM arachnophilia has replied

  
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 20 of 280 (320989)
06-12-2006 11:38 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by arachnophilia
06-12-2006 10:58 PM


Re: two old posts of mine
I like your stuff Spidey!
Well, if you don't mind the opinion of a toothless old cowboy (that's Texan for Christian ) I have to say that many have called me a fanatic and a fundamentalist. As well as a judgemental goat. And... etc..
All I can say is that is very judgemental of them!
I like what you had to say, and I think that you do right in asking questions. I personally love the Apostle Paul, but as a good friend of mine warned me... 'Rob, be careful, there are different kinds of Christians.'
This whole fundamentalist thing is really overstated! When I tell someone they're a sinner, I expect to get a rise. It is offensive, and it is offensive because it is true. We are all sinners!
When someone who is very insecure as I have been most of my life, an offense like that feels like the rug of your whole life is being pulled out from under you. The insecure personality wants nothing more than to feel like they are a good person. That's why self esteem it is such a deadly and effective trap.
The evil Devil screws us up and then we make peoples lives miserable, and they end up insecure and screw other peoples lives up etc. It's a viscious cycle of evil. And the only escape is to acknowledge the truth. And the truth is Christ! (sorry I'm babbling)
It's terribly ironic that Christians are perceived as judgemental. it is exactly the opposite! And as you said Spiderman, not all people are really Christians, but how do you know which are?
Jesus said to not try to pick them out. Only He can know that, and in the end He will seperate the sheep from the goats. I personally live in fear that I am a goat most of the time. some of my good brothers and sisters tell me that is a sure sign I'm a sheep. So... a lot of this stuff is exactly the opposite of what it appears.
I want to make one thing clear right now... Everyone is a fundamentalist! If you have a conviction about anything at all, such as 1+1=2 then I rest my case. To hold an opinion at all requires that you believe in something absolutely! Even if you absolutely refuse to commit and sit on the fence, you will probably be the type who says, 'No-one can know the truth! Well, that is also a fundamentalist statement.
Truth is fundamental! It is absolute, at the very least, implicitly!
That is why Jesus is making a profound and reasonable statement when He said, "I am the way the truth, and the life. No man comes to the father except by me."
That was a statement I had a huge problem with for a long time. But it does not mean that anyone who didn't have an opportunity to know Christ is damned as many suggest. When put into the context of all scripture, God knows, and God alone... knows our hearts. The righteous will live by faith. And the knowledge of God is a universal and very natural (albeit supernatural) instinct. Those who are honest in their hearts and cry out to God will be saved, even if they never knew His name.
I have to stop or the post will be too long and the (secret police) ADsMinisters will get me...
Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by arachnophilia, posted 06-12-2006 10:58 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by arachnophilia, posted 06-13-2006 12:50 PM Rob has replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 21 of 280 (321004)
06-13-2006 1:26 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
06-12-2006 11:14 AM


Phat
My views are pretty much what they have always been though I find I articulate it better these days. Religion is the mob spirit writ large and the dividing walls that we erect between us and those we fear to open our real selves to. It is a pitiful thing that seperates people from the realization of the common ground we all partake of which is our simple shared humanity.
I think the Gods of men are the reflection of men's fears and egos and as such too petty and inadequate to be a serious notion to explain the world we exist in. It is far more reasonable to assume that men would write of Gods that are a mirror image of themselves than that an invisible, immaterial yet all knowing and all powerful entity actually exists.

Dear Mrs Chown, Ignore your son's attempts to teach you physics. Physics isn't the most important thing. Love is.
Best wishes, Richard Feynman.

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mick
Member (Idle past 4986 days)
Posts: 913
Joined: 02-17-2005


Message 22 of 280 (321020)
06-13-2006 3:39 AM


When I grew up, I was forced to attent Jehovah's Witnesses meetings once every week, and had to attend bible study twice a week. I was never asked if I was willing to attend such meetings because, as a child, my views and opinions were worth nothing; and because the central dogma of Christianity is that children have no right of self-determination and no right of conscience.
I was told a whole load of nonsense including the idea that if I got a tattoo or if my sister wore a mini-skirt, we would all go to hell. I was also told I would never be able to marry anybody who was not a Jehovah's Witness.
I realised before the age of around 13 that the supposedly spiritual goal of churches is actually a lie; a lie that exists in order to force people into social conformity and to make people stupid so that they spend their time working for their religious group rather than for their community as a whole. I also discovered that the leaders of such churches are hypocrites, child-abusers, and money-grabbing people, and liars, and despite their protestations that they are concerned with the spiritual life, are actually more concerned with their own financial enrichment.
I was a rather clever 13 year old, because my initial views of the Christian religion have never been proven to be false.
Mick
Edited by mick, : No reason given.

  
Shh
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 280 (321039)
06-13-2006 6:40 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
06-12-2006 11:14 AM


I think all religion puts far to much focus on trying to pin things down, it ends up being an argument over details, instead of an attempt to see what's going on.
I think that people need to put all of the arguments aside and simply love each other.
I think that "love each other" is maybe a bit too simplistic, but I agree with what you're getting at. Unfortunately, I think that religion, and Abrahamic religion in particular, consists of very little other than "the arguments".
I also agree with what ReverendDG said about groupthink. (great word btw)
I don't see how anyone can claim morality while abdicating their moral responsibilities,which seems to be the great attraction of books such as the Bible, they lend an appearance of solidity.

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RickJB
Member (Idle past 4990 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


Message 24 of 280 (321043)
06-13-2006 7:03 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by arachnophilia
06-12-2006 10:58 PM


Re: two old posts of mine
Arach,
You're not alone in your views.
Are you from a conservative part of the US? In the UK the Church of England also sees Christ as something of a dharmic figure - God's messenger of personal enlightenment.
Christians I meet are of the same stripe - very moderate, each with their own personal concept of God.
Perhaps you should seek out your local friendly branch of the C-of-E! :-)
Edited by RickJB, : Typos.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 25 of 280 (321044)
06-13-2006 7:03 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by macaroniandcheese
06-12-2006 6:56 PM


i quit going to church because i can't justify "biblical worship" with a bible that forbids chanting. i
What do you mean by that?
it is, for the most part, the members of churches that have driven me away from god.
Do let people take away from you, what is yours.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 26 of 280 (321046)
06-13-2006 7:14 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by arachnophilia
06-12-2006 9:48 PM


Re: Crash's entirely predictable thoughts on the subject
i can tell you that for me, religion has raised nothing but questions. my life and my philosophy was much easier as an athiest.
Me too. My religion, or my church constantly challenges me.
Like everyone else, I desperately seek answers to the truth. I am on a journey, and it is far from stagnant. Life was simpler when I was agnostic, but God told me when I believe I met Him, that if I chose to follow Him that things would start to get hairy, but that He would be there every step of the way. I only asked for protection of my family.
Above all, I don’t want to be a hypocrite. Much has happened in a very short time.

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 27 of 280 (321059)
06-13-2006 8:11 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by riVeRraT
06-13-2006 7:14 AM


Re: Crash's entirely predictable thoughts on the subject
My religion, or my church constantly challenges me.
Challenges you how? Challenges you, as it did me, to replace what you figured out about the world with what they told you was true?
Like everyone else, I desperately seek answers to the truth.
Do those answers come from your own life experiences, or by opening the Bible?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by riVeRraT, posted 06-13-2006 7:14 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
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ikabod
Member (Idle past 4492 days)
Posts: 365
From: UK
Joined: 03-13-2006


Message 28 of 280 (321075)
06-13-2006 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
06-12-2006 11:14 AM


i think i have learnt that religion is a very bad idea , all place to much importance on ritual , custom , conformity and exclusion . Religions all become human centric organisations , they create a human hierarchy between the beliver and the god , and they seek to perpetuate the system they have set up , which rapidly is taken over by the buearcrates and the founding principles become compromised.
the religion become the reason not the responce .
the true conection to god is faith , in the totalality of the word , such that it is no longer mere belief , you have faith in god in the same way you have faith in the air you breath and the ground you walk on , and god is as intergral to you daliy life as the air and the ground ... such can only be a personal thing .. it needs no books , no chants, no ministers , no buildings . Collective faith is a herd instinct , you cannot build our faith on other peoples foundations
only you can find it ...

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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 29 of 280 (321088)
06-13-2006 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by riVeRraT
06-13-2006 7:03 AM


matthew 6:7
And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words.
i grew up singing hymns, doing responsive readings, and repeating the lord's prayer every sunday. the same order, the same timbre, stand up here, sit down there. i loved every bit. but now that i have questions that are still going unanswered, i can't devote myself to the words. so instead, i simply don't say them. but i can't go and not say anything especially since i'm in a new area. the problem with churches is that they're full of people. and people suck. people have enough trouble dealing with me, i don't have to give them an excuse to think i'm weird or subversive.
i can't say the words because they are not mine. that is not worshiping in spirit and in truth.
btw. i find it very ironic that so many now chant the lord's prayer so emptily.
matthew 6 is a very challenging chapter when discussing american christianity. it's pretty much a summary of my issues.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by riVeRraT, posted 06-13-2006 7:03 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by lfen, posted 06-13-2006 1:16 PM macaroniandcheese has replied
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BMG
Member (Idle past 208 days)
Posts: 357
From: Southwestern U.S.
Joined: 03-16-2006


Message 30 of 280 (321096)
06-13-2006 11:57 AM


Xian-Strong Athiest-Weak Athiest
Great topic, Phat.
Similar to Purple Youko, I too have traveled this particular path, except exchange Jehovah's Witness with Roman Catholic. I was born, baptized, and built into an archetypal Xian. As a child, like so many others, I had questions, but, instead of asking them, I inhibited them for quite some time, roughly until the age of eighteen. Why? Because I often received and later expected the answers to be, "because God said so, or wants it that way, or made it that way, or won't allow that, etc".
This isn't a reproach against my parents, or religion. I'm rather glad I have become disillusioned, and removed the Xian chip implanted over 20 years ago. So, currently, like Purple Youko,and many others, I am a "weak athiest". The idea that the divine doesn't exist is justified by a lack of evidence; however, I still cannot fully claim, like I once did, that the divine surely doesn't exist. There is always a possibility, and I for one embrace the uncertainty.
P.S. If my defintion of a "weak athiest" is incorrect, please, constructive criticism is most welcomed.

Replies to this message:
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