Opinions and conclusions about Religion and God.

my heat shock enzymes work very quickly and i tend to acclimate within a week or two as long as i'm not hampered by over-air-conditioning.

Well, it appears that we are not going to agree on some things. There is only one thing that is fundamental to me... and that is that Christ knows you. That He lives within. I do not pretend to know who He knows and doesn't. I think we can get an idea, based on what people say but take me for example. I would assert that I was born-again in a big way, but it was a couple years before I gave up my evolutionary views. I had always maintained that Genesis was true, and we just didn't understand the symbolism. Some would have called me a heretic...But on this fear stuff I maintain that Jesus spoke a great deal about Hell. And He spoke with fire to the Pharisees. He wasn't fuzzy all over. Let me add some context:those are my personal thoughts on the subject as an amature theologian and philosopher. So please, no-one ask for a reference.But as a backup to what I just shared, I believe that is why C.S. Lewis wrote the following: ---C.S. Lewis, 'Mere Christiantiy'Consider the words of Jesus as opposed to the common and modern view that He came only in peace:The truth always divides and separates reality from subjection. He did not come the first time to judge, but will the second time around...Now, many claim and make an interesting point now and then that Jesus’ words were manipulated and mistranslated. I disagree, for no texts have been protected like the Cannon of scripture. I believe that He did in fact say all of these outrageous and incredible things. It is why He was crucified.

Funny you should say that because that is exactly the way I felt when it finally hit me that maybe they weren't all wrong. Not only that but maybe there was a God after all. It was like a massive weight had been lifted from my shoulders.
The following years of Bible reading and research just served to deepen this feeling. With God in the equation, everything just fell neatly into place. For a while I became a 'strong' evangelist and actively believed that my argument could convert people. Now I'm a weak one Good. It means that if ever you get to thinking "God hmmm?" again you can exclude all but the faith alone position. The one which holds that your afterlife (as opposed to your afterdeath) is not dependant on what you do in this life. You made my day PY!!

Edited by AdminPhat, : Deleted double post of Iano

You really think that's an uplifting message? I can't think of anything more disheartening - dehumanizing, even - than the idea that all this doesn't matter at all, not even as a test. And that Mother Theresa and Adolf Hitler rub elbows in the same heavenly strip joint.

no, of course not. nor do i expect it. i recognize that i'm the abnormal one here, too. as i said previsouly, my personal experience with fundamentalism (having been to nearly every kind of christian church short of the one that involves drinking poison and dancing with snakes, and catholic mass) is that fear plays far, far too large a role in it.i see that fear of the outside world is commonly taught. "world" has a different connotation when uttered from a pulpit than when used by common folk. i see decisions to accept christ out of fear of hell. i see what we've come to call bibolatry out of fear for lack of meaning. this last one in particular shows its ugly head quite regularly here. it's bad enough that it seems the average fundamentalist no longer understands what reason or logic is. again, personal experience. i don't mean to condemn anyone, but i do feel that many churches are victimizing their followers. such a statement is actually the definition of ego. and, i'm sure this will really make our differences obvious, i don't like the portrayal of jesus in the book of john. he walks around saying things like this.while i believe that jesus is the way, the truth, and life -- and that we come to father by him -- walking around preaching the glories of yourself hardly sounds like the humble jesus i know and love.

quote:

---

A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher.

---

c.s. lewis is well respected, i know. but he makes a number of faulty arguments in this rather famous and oft-quoted passage. for starters, the kinds of claims that jesus makes in john (to which he is undoubtably refering) are not neccessarily compatible with sorts of things that happen in the synoptic gospels. with the other three have their little disagreements, by and large, john is the odd man out.the portrayal of jesus in the other three gospels lacks most (if not all) of the wild things lewis uses. that picture of christ is just fine as a very human moral teacher.

quote:

---

or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God.

---

since christ appeared in human form, as a human, he was made in the image of god. worshipping something made in the image of god -- even the son of god himself -- breaks the first commandment. we should worship the same person jesus prayed to gethsemane, and the same person he directed the lord's prayer at: our father.

quote:

---

But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.

---

this is a point that, unfortunately for lewis, is demonstrably wrong. jesus, throughout the gospels, refers to himself as the "the son of man." the hebrew (which you might have noticed that i know a little) "son" (or ben) implies a family relationship, but not always a direct son. so christ is saying, literally, that he's one of us. a human, descended from adam.but there's more to it than that. "son of man" appears elsewhere in the bible. and i'm not refering to the one reference in daniel that's taken out of context. though you might understand what it means after this. "son of man" is found throughout the book of ezekiel. it is how god addresses his prophet. the implication is that god is big and powerful, and ezekiel (the son of man) is a "lowly mortal." indeed, "son of man" means the exact opposite of "god."

quote:

---

---C.S. Lewis, 'Mere Christiantiy'

---

i blame tolkien for this. it's all his fault.i'm gonna ignore the john references. because, as i said, i feel they are out of place. john's a tad on the gnostic side.

quote:

---

Jesus said, ”Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division(Luke 12:51).

---

i've always read this to be highly ironic. if you think about it, it's true. how many families have fallen apart because the christian parents refuse to accept their gay children? how many parents scoff at the their children for their newfound religion? how many brothers go to war against one another over religion? look at crusades -- done in the name of christ.i think christ was smart enough to understand that he was a revolutionary. i hate to be totally contradictory here, but you might want to look into the history of the new testament a little more deeply. you'll find, for instance, that earlier versions of the synoptic gospels agree a lot less than newer ones. it turns out that scribes often fudged the details a little to get things to line up.mistranslated, though? probably not. misinterpretted? quite common place. quite.

---

south florida.i realize that wasn't a "yes" or a "no." nah, tried that. thanks though.

---

The church I go is not the kind of church that tells you things. They let you figure things for yourself. They are a "sending" church. If you feel a calling from God, they will help you get the training you need to fulfill that calling, and then send you out into the world, no matter what your skill.
Eph 4:12One of my Pastor's main rules is not to judge people in any sort of fashion, then followed by loving each other. This can be a challenge, in that we sometimes judge people and do and say things to people that may harm them, and we don't know it. We have all subscribed to speaking the truth in love to each other to lift each other up in this regard. Not an easy thing to accomplish. It's pretty cool because mostly everyone does not have attitudes, and we all get along. We want others who walk through the doors to feel the same way. The real church is outside anyway. By comparing my life experiences to the ones in the bible. Most of these "puzzles" take years to play out, until you see how things are. (for me anyway, I am thick headed). Edited by riVeRraT, : No reason given.

In the words of the youth Pastor at my church, "I'd rather sing a heart felt "shit" than a fake hallelujah"Well put Brenna, I would run far from that church. But I wouldn't give up on all churches. No matter what there will always be challenges in church. It took me 12 churches before I found one that I thought worships in spirit and truth, and accepts people the way they are.
I know you would like it. We express our love for the Lord in spontaneous music, singing, art, dance, you name it.Check out this school. They came to our church once, I liked what they are doing.
Forbidden
I believe there you would be free to be who you are in the Lord.

Got to agree with crash here. This outlook on life depresses the hell out of me.

The outlook that a person would wish that there was no possible redemption for Hitler at all depresses me. That there be no way possible that his atrocious sins be forgiven by God.It depresses me because the person holding that view desires possibility that their sins be forgiven whilst at the same time denying it another. "The I'm not so bad" defence

I have no desire that my sins should be forgiven or that anyone elses should be either..
If I have done anything wrong then I should be judged and punished accordingly and so should Hitler.
Good things should offset bad things so that the overall balance is what counts. If we all get forgiven then I might just as well be a complete asshole for my entire life, as long as I have "faith". With absolute forgiveness there can be no justice.And I don't for one second buy into all this crap about "everyone is a sinner so we all go to hell by default".
Perhaps we all are sinners but I would imagine there are degrees of sin that would be treated differently.This is all assuming that there is actually anybody there to judge us anyway.

More correctly: we don't all get forgiven but forgiveness is available to all. Should a person examining Salvation by Faith Alone conclude that a licence-to-sin goes with a ticket-to-heaven then opening lines of Romans 6 should cause them to pause.There can be justice with absolute forgiveness - so long as someone pays for the sin. Jesus for example There are degrees of sin of course. Pride is hated by God most of all I feel. Sin derives from an old archery expression and is illustrative of "an arrow falling short of the mark" Some of our actions will fall futher from the mark than others. It would be just for very bad sin to be punished more harshly than others. God can add up the total of all your sins and give a punishment that fits the cumulative score of all your "fall a little shorts" and "fall very fars" He has to send you to Hell in order to punish your sin.The question arises as to whether your good counts on the day of Nuremburg. I'm afraid not PY. At least not if you are not saved. The Bible says that you are born enlisted as a soldier in Satans army. Perhaps you are only a corporal or a private 2nd class but in his army you were born. The good you do is done whilst under his command. And you might do good things whilst under that commmand. You might not carry out some of the worst excesses that your comander orders you to do (you look to the absolute body - the Geneva convention and are swayed in your heart by what it says). But it doesn't change the side for who you fight.The only way out is to desert and join the other side. Then your good matters - for instead of standing in the doct, you can share in the spoils of war come VE day.Edited by iano, : No reason given.

If somebody else pays then it isn't justice.As for being "saved", you make it seem like only God can actually save us anyway so where is my free will and choice in all this. I can't save myself if I can only have faith after God gives me it. It becomes his choice not mine.Anyway I think we are starting to stray a little OT for this thread so let's call it a day on this one. We have been here before and not achieved any reasonable agreement.

Justice doesn't care who pays the fine. So long as it is and the money used is legal tender. Justice is otherwise blind That God is the one carries out the actions that result in your salvation is exactly how it is. His action is all that can save you. If you are saved then it is because of his efforts to do so. No credit to you.If you are lost however it is that you have rejected his gospel. Rejected his attempt to point out to you that which you need to knowConsider yourself sliding down a slope to Perdition - for that is what you are on. God reaches out to arrest your fall but your struggle free. He grasps a hold of your hand but you bite it and force him to release his grip. In releasing he is respecting your choice at that point. Occasion after occasion he tries to grasp you. You have free will: you can struggle free of his attempt to save you or you can do nothing - in which case he will get firmer and firmer purchase on you. Slow your descent, halt it - then finally drag you to safety.God saves man / man damns himself