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Author Topic:   Opinions and conclusions about Religion and God.
PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 714
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 61 of 280 (321415)
06-14-2006 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by iano
06-14-2006 10:39 AM


Re: very depressing view!
Justice doesn't care who pays the fine. So long as it is and the money used is legal tender. Justice is otherwise blind
So when you get arrested and convicted of a crime that you did not commit, you will be quite happy that justice has been served will you?
I don't think so.
Do you think that justice would be served if a convicted killer walks free because his brother (an innocent man) volunteers to take his place on death row?
That is a miscarriage of justice, just as it is if Jesus can pay the price for me.
Justice is by no means blind. It demands that the person who comits the crime is the person who pays the price. The people who administer justice may well be blind but that is just their failing, not the failing of justice as an ideal.
That God is the one carries out the actions that result in your salvation is exactly how it is. His action is all that can save you. If you are saved then it is because of his efforts to do so. No credit to you.
Just as I thought. I have absolutely no say in the matter. If he chooses to save me it is 100% his choice so I might just as well go out and do exactly what I want for the rest of my life until he decides to "save" me then after that I can ask for forgiveness.
Consider yourself sliding down a slope to Perdition - for that is what you are on. God reaches out to arrest your fall but your struggle free.
I find it hard to believe that if God reaches out to someone in a way that (to them) is absolutely obvious. In a way that leaves them no question as to his existence, that they would attempt to struggle free.
What if he never does so? Then where is my free will? Am I condemned to hell still? If I am then it is as the result of an arbitrary decision that I have absolutely no influence over. Or are you saying that he will reach out to everyone at some point?
The only slippery slope we are on right now is towards an OT rebuke by the Admins.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by iano, posted 06-14-2006 10:39 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by JavaMan, posted 06-14-2006 11:18 AM PurpleYouko has replied
 Message 65 by iano, posted 06-14-2006 11:25 AM PurpleYouko has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 62 of 280 (321416)
06-14-2006 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by iano
06-14-2006 10:39 AM


Re: very depressing view!
iano writes:
Justice doesn't care who pays the fine.
Don't start that silliness again. You might as well say that justice doesn't care who goes to jail as long as somebody does. It isn't justice unless the right person pays the penalty.
Justice may be blind, but it isn't as stupid as you make it out to be.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by iano, posted 06-14-2006 10:39 AM iano has not replied

  
JavaMan
Member (Idle past 2319 days)
Posts: 475
From: York, England
Joined: 08-05-2005


Message 63 of 280 (321424)
06-14-2006 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by iano
06-14-2006 9:14 AM


Re: very depressing view!
The outlook that a person would wish that there was no possible redemption for Hitler at all depresses me. That there be no way possible that his atrocious sins be forgiven by God.
Yes, secular morality is hard, iano. Sins are non-transferable. We have to live with what we do, and no kind parent will ever come along to relieve us of our responsibility.

'I can't even fit all my wife's clothes into a suitcase for travelling. So you want me to believe we're going to put all of the planets and stars and everything into a sandwich bag?' - q3psycho on the Big Bang

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by iano, posted 06-14-2006 9:14 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by iano, posted 06-14-2006 11:28 AM JavaMan has replied

  
JavaMan
Member (Idle past 2319 days)
Posts: 475
From: York, England
Joined: 08-05-2005


Message 64 of 280 (321429)
06-14-2006 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by PurpleYouko
06-14-2006 10:58 AM


Blind justice
The people who administer justice may well be blind but that is just their failing, not the failing of justice as an ideal.
I think you might be misunderstanding what 'blind justice' means. Justice is supposed to be blind in the sense of being impartial, i.e. blind to everything but the matter of the case before it.

'I can't even fit all my wife's clothes into a suitcase for travelling. So you want me to believe we're going to put all of the planets and stars and everything into a sandwich bag?' - q3psycho on the Big Bang

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by PurpleYouko, posted 06-14-2006 10:58 AM PurpleYouko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by PurpleYouko, posted 06-14-2006 11:27 AM JavaMan has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 65 of 280 (321431)
06-14-2006 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by PurpleYouko
06-14-2006 10:58 AM


Re: very depressing view!
So when you get arrested and convicted of a crime that you did not commit, you will be quite happy that justice has been served will you?
If the person who committed the crime is someone I love I can welcome the opportunity to take their place. My choice. This is not to say I will enjoy the punishment. But that is not the central issue. The central issue is that the case will be closed, punishment for a crime issued and my love for the perp expressed
The perp might be thankful enough not to consider my sacrifice lightly and commit another crime for which he knows I will gladly take the hit for. He might read the start of Romans 6
Justice is by no means blind. It demands that the person who comits the crime is the person who pays the price. The people who administer justice may well be blind but that is just their failing, not the failing of justice as an ideal.
God said that his justice is served so. If its good enough for him you might take him up on his offer. Or you can insert your own notions about what justice should be and pay the price yourself. In doing so you are ignoring his gospel. Another attempt to grasp you rejected. The good news is that your sense of natural justice is not shared by God. Thank God that it isn't or spit it back in his face
I find it hard to believe that if God reaches out to someone in a way that (to them) is absolutely obvious. In a way that leaves them no question as to his existence, that they would attempt to struggle free.
He can't make it obvious all along the way - that would interfere with your free will to reject. He operates in an area outside your intellect. In your heart. He grasps through your conscience, through his word, through argument such as this, through nature. He knows your intellect often rejects it - he is not worried about that. But if somewhere in your heart there is something that responds to him then that is what matters. Even if you ignore a call of conscience for example and do the wrong thing - but wish that you hadn't - that is a success. He knows you are tempted, he knows that as a sinner you will do the wrong thing. But he heard your heart "I wish I hadn't done that". Its the person who does the wrong thing and whose heart says "I did the right thing" who has bitten his hand.
This is not to say he won't reach again. We all justify our wrong doing. He is listening out for the times when we acknowledge, in our hearts, our wrong doing.
Its at the very end of the struggle when the slide has been arrested (if we have let it be arrested) that he can finally reveal to us what it was that halted our descent. It is then we see and kneel.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by PurpleYouko, posted 06-14-2006 10:58 AM PurpleYouko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by PurpleYouko, posted 06-14-2006 12:01 PM iano has replied

  
PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 714
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 66 of 280 (321432)
06-14-2006 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by JavaMan
06-14-2006 11:18 AM


Re: Blind justice
I think you might be misunderstanding what 'blind justice' means. Justice is supposed to be blind in the sense of being impartial, i.e. blind to everything but the matter of the case before it.
No I am not misunderstanding it as such, I am just applying my resoning to the concept of it that Iano is putting forward.
He says specifically that "justice does not care who pays the price, just so long as it gets paid."
I say that it most certainly does care who pays. In fact justice demands that the guilty party (the person that the justice system deams to be guilty, not necessarily the real guilty party) pays the price and specifically will not allow an innocent party to pay it instead.
That is justice

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by JavaMan, posted 06-14-2006 11:18 AM JavaMan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by JavaMan, posted 06-15-2006 3:55 AM PurpleYouko has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 67 of 280 (321435)
06-14-2006 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by JavaMan
06-14-2006 11:13 AM


Re: very depressing view!
Thats secular morality for you. And the moral relativism that goes with it. Hitler 'bad', Jane 'good' - according to Jane of course! I'll warrant Hitler had his own views.
To the victor goes the definition of morality

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by JavaMan, posted 06-14-2006 11:13 AM JavaMan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by JavaMan, posted 06-15-2006 3:51 AM iano has not replied

  
PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 714
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 68 of 280 (321442)
06-14-2006 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by iano
06-14-2006 11:25 AM


Re: very depressing view!
If the person who committed the crime is someone I love I can welcome the opportunity to take their place. My choice. This is not to say I will enjoy the punishment. But that is not the central issue. The central issue is that the case will be closed, punishment for a crime issued and my love for the perp expressed
Not in any court of law that I have ever heard of. Maybe in some second rate kangeroo court where the officials are so corrupt that they can be bought off but not in a halfway decent court.
If you really consider that to be justice then the two of us are so far apart that we might as well just start ignoring each other's posts. We are never going to agree on anything whatsoever.
The perp might be thankful enough not to consider my sacrifice lightly and commit another crime for which he knows I will gladly take the hit for. He might read the start of Romans 6
ROFLMAO. Right. Like that is going to happen in the real world.
God said that his justice is served so. If its good enough for him you might take him up on his offer.
Did he tell you this personally? Remember I don't accept that the bible is the direct word of God. I view it as a bunch of somewhat related parables (some of which may possibly have been inspired as my position will not allow me to rule this out entirely) as seen through the eyes of a conglomeration of sheepherders and various others and written down a couple of thousand years ago about events that even then were second or third hand information and myth.
If God said this to you personally then you should believe it I guess but if you are inferring it by reading between the lines of a very vague document of questionable authenticity then it is only really your own interpretation of the real situation.
The good news is that your sense of natural justice is not shared by God.
This is good news to you ??? I prefer to think that (just as the bible says) we were made in the image of God and that we share his sense of justice. If we don't then, again, we might as well live our lives exactly the way we want to and to hell with our court system since our definition of justice means bugger all in the eyes of God anyway.
To say that God is just is utterly meaningless if his justice is nothing like ours. It obviously requires a different word entirely since the word "justice" has already been taken and is very well defined in the dictionary
He can't make it obvious all along the way - that would interfere with your free will to reject
Don't be silly. Of course he could. It wouldn't affect free will one little bit if God came and rode around the sky in a flaming chariot every day. Oh wait some other religion already took that one. Sorry Apollo. No offense meant.
Seriously though, if everyone on earth physically saw God every day and knew full well who he was there would still be free choice. Some would undoubtedly still choose the other side. A & E did (and that was before the fall) so why would we be any different?
But if somewhere in your heart there is something that responds to him then that is what matters. Even if you ignore a call of conscience for example and do the wrong thing - but wish that you hadn't - that is a success. He knows you are tempted, he knows that as a sinner you will do the wrong thing. But he heard your heart "I wish I hadn't done that". Its the person who does the wrong thing and whose heart says "I did the right thing" who has bitten his hand.
Oh that's OK then. I certainly have a conscience and regret all the petty and nasty things that I have done in my life (even if some were justified). Sounds like I might already be in the process of being 'saved' then without even realizing it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by iano, posted 06-14-2006 11:25 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by jar, posted 06-14-2006 12:07 PM PurpleYouko has replied
 Message 71 by iano, posted 06-14-2006 12:22 PM PurpleYouko has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 69 of 280 (321445)
06-14-2006 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by PurpleYouko
06-14-2006 12:01 PM


Re: very depressing view!
Oh that's OK then. I certainly have a conscience and regret all the petty and nasty things that I have done in my life (even if some were justified). Sounds like I might already be in the process of being 'saved' then without even realizing it.
IMHO there is not much doubt that you are saved. That is pretty much a given. The things you mention are very important and there is just one other step. In addition to what you mentioned so far, you also need to really try to do what is right in the future. You probably won't fully succeed, but even then if you have really tried, you'll do just fine.
It really is that simple.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by PurpleYouko, posted 06-14-2006 12:01 PM PurpleYouko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by PurpleYouko, posted 06-14-2006 12:21 PM jar has replied

  
PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 714
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 70 of 280 (321447)
06-14-2006 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by jar
06-14-2006 12:07 PM


Re: very depressing view!
MHO there is not much doubt that you are saved. That is pretty much a given. The things you mention are very important and there is just one other step. In addition to what you mentioned so far, you also need to really try to do what is right in the future. You probably won't fully succeed, but even then if you have really tried, you'll do just fine.
Jar. I have absolutely no problems with the views about God which you portray.
In a way I even hope you are right.
I like to think that I at least try to do what is right all the time and I am quite certain that I am going to fail on numerous occasions. I can't even live up to my own expectations so what chance would I have of meeting Gods (if he indeed happens to exist). I think you could safely remove the "probably" from that sentence and get no arguments from anybody except the truly arrogant.
I think it is likely that I will continue to be a weak atheist until such time as God makes him(her)self known to me in a way that is utterly unambiguous to me. Personally, I don't think that is ever going to happen since I strongly suspect that there is no God there but that cannot be proven. Either way it isn't going to affect the way I live my life.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by jar, posted 06-14-2006 12:07 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by iano, posted 06-14-2006 12:29 PM PurpleYouko has not replied
 Message 73 by jar, posted 06-14-2006 12:31 PM PurpleYouko has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 71 of 280 (321448)
06-14-2006 12:22 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by PurpleYouko
06-14-2006 12:01 PM


Re: very depressing view!
but not in a halfway decent court.
It has little to do with the quality of the court. A person who walks into the police station and confesses to a crime will be arrested, questioned (Jesus knows all the details of our crime so makes a perfect confession). He appears before a judge who is only dealing with the evidence - justice is blind. "Guilty your honour" and sentence is passed. There is little else to it - decent court or no.
Like that is going to happen in the real world.
Maybe not first time, or second time, or ever. But it will probably give the perp cause to consider - especially when he sees the punishment inflicted each time.
Did he tell you this personally?
Didn't tell - demonstrated. I'm saved, remember?
Seriously though, if everyone on earth physically saw God every day and knew full well who he was there would still be free choice.
Free choice to disbelieve he exists? Hmmm
Take a look at the next beautiful sunset you catch. Take in all the science that is going on in it: the athmosphere, the swallows feeding on the wing, the relative minisculity of mans might represented by the Boeing 747 which is suspended as delicate as a butterfly in the sky.
Then suppose the might and power of the person who made it all possible - including your mind which is able to discern it all. Then imagine what effect coming face to face with such stupendous power and majesty might have on you. "Yo God howsit going dude" ? I think not.
I think the Bible has a slightly better slant on it in the time when "Every knee WILL bow and every tongue WILL confess that Jesus Christ is Lord" - whether it wants to or not. Don't limit your horizon to Jesus as the gently, humble servant. That is only one aspect to him.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by PurpleYouko, posted 06-14-2006 12:01 PM PurpleYouko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by PurpleYouko, posted 06-14-2006 12:42 PM iano has not replied
 Message 111 by JavaMan, posted 06-15-2006 4:07 AM iano has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 72 of 280 (321451)
06-14-2006 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by PurpleYouko
06-14-2006 12:21 PM


Re: very depressing view!
I can't even live up to my own expectations so what chance would I have of meeting Gods
None.
And he knows it.
And loves you.
So did something about it

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by PurpleYouko, posted 06-14-2006 12:21 PM PurpleYouko has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 73 of 280 (321452)
06-14-2006 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by PurpleYouko
06-14-2006 12:21 PM


Not a Problem.
I think it is likely that I will continue to be a weak atheist until such time as God makes him(her)self known to me in a way that is utterly unambiguous to me. Personally, I don't think that is ever going to happen since I strongly suspect that there is no God there but that cannot be proven. Either way it isn't going to affect the way I live my life.
No problem. If I'm right you'll get just that type of evidence, a face to face meeting. If I'm wrong you will have still lived the best possible life and so we all benefit.
It really is a win-win situation.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by PurpleYouko, posted 06-14-2006 12:21 PM PurpleYouko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by iano, posted 06-14-2006 12:40 PM jar has not replied
 Message 76 by PurpleYouko, posted 06-14-2006 12:43 PM jar has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 74 of 280 (321456)
06-14-2006 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by jar
06-14-2006 12:31 PM


Re: Not a Problem.
No problem. If I'm right you'll get just that type of evidence, a face to face meeting. If I'm wrong you will have still lived the best possible life and so we all benefit.
If Jar is right then you won't know it until the day you die - which is a little bit too late in the proceedings to do anything very much about the consequences of him being wrong.
If 'I' am right then you don't have to wait until the day you die to find out. Like you could find out right more or less right now if you were ready too. But I don't know if you are. Only you know that.
Now that's a win win situation

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by jar, posted 06-14-2006 12:31 PM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by PurpleYouko, posted 06-14-2006 12:55 PM iano has replied

  
PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 714
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 75 of 280 (321457)
06-14-2006 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by iano
06-14-2006 12:22 PM


Re: very depressing view!
It has little to do with the quality of the court. A person who walks into the police station and confesses to a crime will be arrested, questioned (Jesus knows all the details of our crime so makes a perfect confession). He appears before a judge who is only dealing with the evidence - justice is blind. "Guilty your honour" and sentence is passed. There is little else to it - decent court or no.
Not at all. Nobody gets convicted just because they walk into a police station and claim to have committed a crime.
Before the judge can pronounce the defendent guilty the evidence has to be presented. If the defendent did not commit the crime then there will be no evidence and the judge will pronounce him innocent and kick his ass out of court with a warning against wasting the court's time.
Yes justice is blind in that it deals only with evidence but that does not in any way mean that an innocent man with no evidence against him, can pay the penalty for a crime that he did not commit. No matter how much he protests, he will be refused if the court is just and not corrupt.
Didn't tell - demonstrated. I'm saved, remember?
So you keep saying. What I would like to know is where it is written in unambiguous black and white text, from a proven source, the exact method by which this happens.
Free choice to disbelieve he exists? Hmmm
What the heck has disbelieving that he exists got to do with it? That is just being willfully stupid and deliberately avoiding the real issue.
You still have the choice to do what is right or wrong whether you know he exists or not.
You know he exists. Right?
Do you still have free will to do what is right or wrong?
Then suppose the might and power of the person who made it all possible - including your mind which is able to discern it all. Then imagine what effect coming face to face with such stupendous power and majesty might have on you. "Yo God howsit going dude" ? I think not.
So how the heck did A & E manage to disobey him then? All you are doing is pointing out yet more inconsistencies in the bible.
If you are correct then Genesis is total BS and vice versa.
I think the Bible has a slightly better slant on it in the time when "Every knee WILL bow and every tongue WILL confess that Jesus Christ is Lord" - whether it wants to or not. Don't limit your horizon to Jesus as the gently, humble servant. That is only one aspect to him.
I don't view Jesus as anything except some guy who people wrote a bunch of mythology about. That a massive religion grew out of it is just testament to the gullibility of people in general and their pathelogical need to belong to something bigger than themselves. It probably stems from insecurity due to a fear of death.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by iano, posted 06-14-2006 12:22 PM iano has not replied

  
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