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Author Topic:   Free will: an illusion
Heathen
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 1 of 309 (321529)
06-14-2006 4:56 PM


This is Directed at Iano primarily, and intended to discuss the notion of free will. But obviously anyone who shares his views are welcome to respond.
Iano's viewpoint is that Free will is what makes us human, and within the confines of his belief system, If God were to make himself known to us in an explicit, undeniable way, this free will would be taken from us, as we would have no choice other than to believe.
my thoughts are as follows:
- It is my belief that if the Xian doctrine is to be believed, God is all knowing, and outside of time. He knows what will happen, what has happened, and what is happening. Therefore any notion of free will is a myth. We are merely playing out what is inevitable. Given this Predestination, I have the illusion of choice, but in truth there is only one path which can be followed, the one which Your God can see and knows to be true.
- It is my understanding that freedom to chose requires having ALL THE RELEVANT INFORMATION to make that choice. INFORMATION.. not hearsay, not stories, not ancient questionable texts. REAL INFORMATION. If god made himself undeniably known to us we would then have the CHOICE to accept or reject him.. 'Free will' still intact, this should be no problem to you. (Or does your 'free will' only apply to choosing to believe without evidence? Does this mean that you have now lost your free will given that you have been saved and have had undeniable evidence of god?)
-You yourself state and have stated that in our fallen condition we are UNABLE to discern information or evidence correctly,
i.e. We cannot make the correct choices without God making them for us (Deciding to save us).Even if God made himself known to each and everyone of us, your teachings state that we are unable to choose because we are fallen or flawed. If you give 'free will' to a person who is unable to properly excercise that free will, what freedom do they really have?
to summarise: (the engineer in me likes to strip things down to the important points)
1) Free will is an Illusion, since God knows what will happen, what choices we will make.
2) Without the relevant information to make an informed choice our 'Free will' is not free at all.
3) Without the ability to even discern what information is correct (due to our 'fallen state'), free will is irrelevant, pointless, wasted. and point 2 doesn't even come into play.
I would appreciate a straight answer to these points. I have raised these points many times and the usual tactics come straight into play: dodge/weave/analogise/distract.
You analogise using the blind man story, and ignore the obvious gaping holes in this analogy.
If you choose to respond to this post I would appreciate as direct as possible responses to these three points. Please leave out the parent-child analogies, please leave out the leading question as a response tactics. simply address the points. And if your response is going to be along the lines of "well we couldn't possibly understand what god's plan is" don't bother... please.)

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by AdminNWR, posted 06-14-2006 6:51 PM Heathen has replied
 Message 5 by rgb, posted 06-14-2006 7:57 PM Heathen has replied
 Message 7 by Sour, posted 06-14-2006 8:20 PM Heathen has replied
 Message 15 by Discreet Label, posted 06-14-2006 9:34 PM Heathen has replied
 Message 16 by ramoss, posted 06-14-2006 9:46 PM Heathen has not replied
 Message 75 by ikabod, posted 06-15-2006 10:40 AM Heathen has replied
 Message 79 by Phat, posted 06-15-2006 11:28 AM Heathen has replied

AdminNWR
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 309 (321565)
06-14-2006 6:51 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Heathen
06-14-2006 4:56 PM


Where should this go?
What forum did you have in mind? It could fit in Faith and Belief, but it could also go in Social Issues and Creation/Evolution. Or do you have a different suggestion?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Heathen, posted 06-14-2006 4:56 PM Heathen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Heathen, posted 06-14-2006 7:08 PM AdminNWR has not replied

Heathen
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 3 of 309 (321572)
06-14-2006 7:08 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by AdminNWR
06-14-2006 6:51 PM


Re: Where should this go?
I would have thought Faith and Belief.
Iano suggested a 'great debate'.. but I fear my debating skills and my spare time may not be up to it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by AdminNWR, posted 06-14-2006 6:51 PM AdminNWR has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by iano, posted 06-14-2006 8:06 PM Heathen has replied

AdminNWR
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 309 (321575)
06-14-2006 7:16 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

rgb
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 309 (321581)
06-14-2006 7:57 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Heathen
06-14-2006 4:56 PM


Define free will.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Heathen, posted 06-14-2006 4:56 PM Heathen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Heathen, posted 06-14-2006 8:39 PM rgb has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 6 of 309 (321585)
06-14-2006 8:06 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Heathen
06-14-2006 7:08 PM


Re: Where should this go?
I'm not in a hurry Crevo. You are looking for "decent" answers and so will I be when you object to them. That takes time. I'm not out to win a debate. Is souls I'm out to win. If your prepared to risk that then you have nothing to fear from me. It'll be a combat free zone (in the sense of combat = war)
It'll have to be a great debate though. I'm not in the mood for a pile on. It would distract us both.
Ask Admin to move it if your up for it
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Heathen, posted 06-14-2006 7:08 PM Heathen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Heathen, posted 06-14-2006 8:33 PM iano has replied

Sour
Member (Idle past 2247 days)
Posts: 63
From: I don't know but when I find out there will be trouble. (Portsmouth UK)
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 7 of 309 (321590)
06-14-2006 8:20 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Heathen
06-14-2006 4:56 PM


1) Free will is an Illusion, since God knows what will happen, what choices we will make.
I agree. Isn't the normal reply that because God is all powerful he could make it so? At least he could give the utter appearance of free will. If we couldn't tell there would be no real difference.
- It is my understanding that freedom to chose requires having ALL THE RELEVANT INFORMATION to make that choice. INFORMATION.. not hearsay, not stories, not ancient questionable texts.
This is not my understanding of free will. We make choices based on incomplete information all the time.
2) Without the relevant information to make an informed choice our 'Free will' is not free at all.
By 'Free will' do you specifically mean the choice of belief in the Christian god?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Heathen, posted 06-14-2006 4:56 PM Heathen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Heathen, posted 06-14-2006 8:43 PM Sour has not replied

Heathen
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 8 of 309 (321593)
06-14-2006 8:33 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by iano
06-14-2006 8:06 PM


Re: Where should this go?
this mightn't work then, I'm not interested in being converted,
I simply wanta response, as you see it to the questions/points raised.
If you hold these opinions I wouldn't have thought it would be a big deal to answer.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by iano, posted 06-14-2006 8:06 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by iano, posted 06-14-2006 9:07 PM Heathen has replied

Heathen
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 9 of 309 (321594)
06-14-2006 8:39 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by rgb
06-14-2006 7:57 PM


Free will to choose whether or not to follow god, as opposed to waiting for god to choose us.
Free will in the sense that Adam and eve supposedly had free will to choose to obey/disobey god. (god made them, god knew what they would choose.. was it free will at all?)
Does Free will have any meaning if we are "fallen" and thus cannot make reasonable choices.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by rgb, posted 06-14-2006 7:57 PM rgb has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by rgb, posted 06-14-2006 8:49 PM Heathen has replied
 Message 147 by Faith, posted 06-16-2006 12:33 PM Heathen has not replied

Heathen
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 10 of 309 (321597)
06-14-2006 8:43 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Sour
06-14-2006 8:20 PM


sour writes:
This is not my understanding of free will. We make choices based on incomplete information all the time.
fair point, I guess in this case I take issue with the fact that God will punish us for not choosing him, when he provides no hard evidence of his existance.. why not just present us with all the facts and let us choose? why does he choose to play games with us
sour writes:
By 'Free will' do you specifically mean the choice of belief in the Christian god?
for the purposes of this discussion.. yes..

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 Message 7 by Sour, posted 06-14-2006 8:20 PM Sour has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by mjfloresta, posted 06-14-2006 10:55 PM Heathen has not replied

rgb
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 309 (321599)
06-14-2006 8:49 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Heathen
06-14-2006 8:39 PM


Does this definition of free will also include eternal damnation if we didn't use our free will to believe?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Heathen, posted 06-14-2006 8:39 PM Heathen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Heathen, posted 06-14-2006 9:00 PM rgb has not replied

Heathen
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 12 of 309 (321604)
06-14-2006 9:00 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by rgb
06-14-2006 8:49 PM


I suspect yes.. but you'll have to ask the Xians that one...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by rgb, posted 06-14-2006 8:49 PM rgb has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by jar, posted 06-14-2006 9:07 PM Heathen has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 13 of 309 (321606)
06-14-2006 9:07 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Heathen
06-14-2006 8:33 PM


Re: Where should this go?
It wouldn't be me doing the converting. I'd just be answering your questions. But in listening to them you run the risk.
Its not a big deal to answer but not in an open forum. A topic like this would just get too messy.
It's probably too late for this thread now its gotten going. Some other time then

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Heathen, posted 06-14-2006 8:33 PM Heathen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Heathen, posted 06-14-2006 9:55 PM iano has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 14 of 309 (321607)
06-14-2006 9:07 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Heathen
06-14-2006 9:00 PM


Speaking as a Christian and xian.
Hell no. Whether you believe or not has absolutely nothing to do with salvation. Everybody starts off saved. Everybody starts off innocent. Your salvation will depend on how you live your life. Try to do what is right, try not to do what is wrong, exercise your freewill within the constraints that exist and you'll do fine.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Heathen, posted 06-14-2006 9:00 PM Heathen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by rgb, posted 06-14-2006 9:51 PM jar has replied
 Message 20 by Heathen, posted 06-14-2006 9:56 PM jar has not replied
 Message 71 by cavediver, posted 06-15-2006 7:38 AM jar has not replied

Discreet Label
Member (Idle past 5063 days)
Posts: 272
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 15 of 309 (321611)
06-14-2006 9:34 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Heathen
06-14-2006 4:56 PM


Free Will
Free will as I see it is the ability to make any choice. Be it with/out information and everything in between. Even with the idea that entity out there knows everything that you are doing, you still maintain the ability to choose to do whatever you want, or at least the illusion. And the illusion of choice is as realistic as being able to choose.
In this I hearken back to an old science fiction/fantasy idea that sufficiently sophisticated "magic" looks and feels exactly like technology. While sufficiently sophisticated "technology" looks like magic. I'm not sure how to word it with the idea of free will, but the idea carries the same meaning, if a person can not distinguish from free will or the illusion of free will, then there really is no difference for the person. Where the difference does come into play is with the entity that knows a person's lack of free will.
To the entity that knows every move that will make for him the free will does not exist for the people that it is watching. It becomes a position such that since it is known, people's choices have no meaning. This can be said to be exactly like an abusive relationship (i'm not saying it is but this particular situation is the only one that i know carries all of the characteristics to demonstrate my point). Within an abusive relationship, it is created in such a way that a persons entire life becomes 100% dependent upon the abuser, the abuser becomes the complete world which in turn removes any exposure to outside options or even if outside options are considered they have no notion of how to go through with the option. For example the idea of killing the abuser may never occur because the abused may never had heard of the idea. The idea of denying the abuser may never occur because of past experiences with being beaten. The only way free choice really enters into the picture in this case is if a person can see the validity and trying of another option.
(at least my two cents hopefully it adequately addresses the topic, if not i just wanted to try)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Heathen, posted 06-14-2006 4:56 PM Heathen has replied

Replies to this message:
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