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Author Topic:   IC & the Cambrian Explosion for Ahmad...cont..
peter borger
Member (Idle past 7665 days)
Posts: 965
From: australia
Joined: 07-05-2002


Message 156 of 199 (32049)
02-12-2003 4:56 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by mark24
02-12-2003 8:15 AM


Dear Mark,
You ask: What does GUToB predict regarding fossils?
PB: The GUToB predicts sudden appearance of MPGs, (major) gaps between original MPGs and MPG extinctions if unable to reproduce properly and catastophes.
Best wishes,
Peter
[This message has been edited by peter borger, 02-12-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by mark24, posted 02-12-2003 8:15 AM mark24 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by wj, posted 02-12-2003 5:33 PM peter borger has not replied
 Message 158 by mark24, posted 02-12-2003 5:45 PM peter borger has replied
 Message 159 by Quetzal, posted 02-13-2003 1:07 AM peter borger has replied

  
peter borger
Member (Idle past 7665 days)
Posts: 965
From: australia
Joined: 07-05-2002


Message 160 of 199 (32161)
02-13-2003 6:16 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by Quetzal
02-13-2003 1:07 AM


Hi Quetzal,
PB: Out of curiousity - how would the GUToB classify Cryptogale australis? We're talking an extinct critter that is smack dab intermediate between the Tenrecinae and the Oryzorictinae, having the skull and certain skeletal details of the Tenrecinae and the dentition and other skeletal details of the Oryzorictinae. Does this count as an intermediate/transitional form? Does Cryptogale represent the MPG of the Tenrecomorpha? If so, where does the Geogalinae and the Potomogalinae fit in, since they are all tenrecomorphs? Inquiring minds and all that...
PB: Did you exclude the possibility of a hybrid?
Best wishes,
Peter

This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by Quetzal, posted 02-13-2003 1:07 AM Quetzal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by Quetzal, posted 02-14-2003 2:28 AM peter borger has replied

  
peter borger
Member (Idle past 7665 days)
Posts: 965
From: australia
Joined: 07-05-2002


Message 161 of 199 (32162)
02-13-2003 6:19 PM
Reply to: Message 158 by mark24
02-12-2003 5:45 PM


dear mark,
MP: "Define transitional form as predicted by the ToE"
PB: Ages ago you gave your definaition of TF and I sid Show me the money. You did, I guess, so what's the fuss about?
The TFs demonstrated in this thread aren't TFs, they are MPGs.
Best wishes,
Peter

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by mark24, posted 02-12-2003 5:45 PM mark24 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by wj, posted 02-13-2003 9:50 PM peter borger has replied
 Message 167 by mark24, posted 02-14-2003 4:58 AM peter borger has replied

  
peter borger
Member (Idle past 7665 days)
Posts: 965
From: australia
Joined: 07-05-2002


Message 163 of 199 (32180)
02-13-2003 10:59 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by wj
02-13-2003 9:50 PM


dear WJ,
You say:
Are you going to give a serious answers to the multitude of outstanding question on this tread addressed to you?
PB: I am aware of these outstanding questions. However, it needs immense scrutiny to define MPGs. It in nowadays almosts impossible to exactly define species. So, why do you expect me to be able what a thousand wise men are unable to? Of course I will think about these excellent questions.
WJ: Just as a sample:
So PB, do the different mpg's correspond to any taxanomic strata? Phylum? Order? Genus?
PB: Excellent question. Hard to answer.
WJ: From whence could mpg's suddenly appear?
PB: From the Creative Force? As if evolutionism has an answer to these question.
WJ: Did all whales come from one MPG (Ambulocetus?) or should they be split into three MPGs (archaeocetes(paraphyletic), toothed whales(paraphyletic), baleen whales (monophyletic)) or four (archaeocetes, baleen whales, sperm whales, dolphins (including orca)) or five (archaeocetes, baleen whales, sperm whales, dolphins, orca) or one MPG=one genus, or one MPG=one species like Homo vs Pan?
PB: Probably, probably not. How do I know? I postulate a new idea, that's all I do. Now it is time for scrutiny. Andya's idea should be tested. Did you really think that I am able to say option 1 is true, or option 2 is good. Of course not. It will takes decades to find out whether or not the idea can hold. It took about 140 years to find out that evolutionism is wrong, so be patient.
PB: If you are able to demonstrate an organisms that you qualify as TF in an evolutionary sense, then I will explain them from GUToB.
[url=http://darla.neoucom.edu/DEPTS/ANAT/Ambulocet.html]
WJ: Ambulocetus natans
PB: This another MPG.
WJ: Ungulate or cetacean mpg? if all vertebrates are from the one mpg, why don't we see transitions between dogs and cats?
PB: Cat and wolf are probably distinct MPGs.
PB: How do we recognise and discriminate between MPGs? I don't know yet. It suspect that it has something to do with Ernst Mayers definition of species. But it should be extended.
Best wishes,
Peter
WJ: Ambulocetus natans
PB: This another MPG.
WJ: Ungulate or cetacean mpg? if all vertebrates are from the one mpg, why don't we see transitions between dogs and cats?
PB: Cat and wolf are probably distinct MPGs.
PB: How do we recognise and discriminate between MPGs? I don't know yet. It suspect that it has something to do with Ernst Mayers definition of species. But it should be extended.
Best wishes,
Peter
[]
WJ: Ambulocetus natans
PB: This another MPG.
WJ: Ungulate or cetacean mpg? if all vertebrates are from the one mpg, why don't we see transitions between dogs and cats?
PB: Cat and wolf are probably distinct MPGs.
PB: How do we recognise and discriminate between MPGs? I don't know yet. It suspect that it has something to do with Ernst Mayers definition of species. But it should be extended.
Best wishes,
Peter
WJ: Ambulocetus natans
PB: This another MPG.
WJ: Ungulate or cetacean mpg? if all vertebrates are from the one mpg, why don't we see transitions between dogs and cats?
PB: Cat and wolf are probably distinct MPGs.
PB: How do we recognise and discriminate between MPGs? I don't know yet. It suspect that it has something to do with Ernst Mayers definition of species. But it should be extended.
Best wishes,
Peter

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by wj, posted 02-13-2003 9:50 PM wj has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by wj, posted 02-13-2003 11:26 PM peter borger has replied

  
peter borger
Member (Idle past 7665 days)
Posts: 965
From: australia
Joined: 07-05-2002


Message 165 of 199 (32197)
02-14-2003 1:43 AM
Reply to: Message 164 by wj
02-13-2003 11:26 PM


Hi WJ,
WJ:
It would appear, PB, that you have very little idea about what your mpg is, but this does not stop you from offering it as an explanation for any observations in the fossil record. Surely these should have been thought about and tenative answers found before declaring your gutob as a better theory than the theory of evolution.
PB: It would appear, WJ, that biologists have very little idea about what a species is (Hey, J. The mind of the species problem. Trends in Ecology and Evolution. 2001, vol 16, no7. AT LEAST I BACK UP MY CLAIMS), but is does not stop them from offering evolutionism for any observations, including medicine, psychology, day-to-day-life, criminology, etcetera. Surely, these should have been thought about thoroughly and tentative answers found before declaring that evolutionism is a theory that can explain all life associated phenomena. As demonstrated, it can not. It is story telling, and I can make up stories myself.
Best wishes,
Peter
[This message has been edited by peter borger, 02-14-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by wj, posted 02-13-2003 11:26 PM wj has not replied

  
peter borger
Member (Idle past 7665 days)
Posts: 965
From: australia
Joined: 07-05-2002


Message 168 of 199 (32236)
02-14-2003 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 167 by mark24
02-14-2003 4:58 AM


Hi Mark,
In message #65 you say:
"A transitional is a form that possesses characters, or character states that are part way between two separate taxa.? "
PB: Is this your definition of a TF?
Best wishes,
Peter

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by mark24, posted 02-14-2003 4:58 AM mark24 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 169 by mark24, posted 02-14-2003 4:14 PM peter borger has not replied

  
peter borger
Member (Idle past 7665 days)
Posts: 965
From: australia
Joined: 07-05-2002


Message 170 of 199 (32301)
02-14-2003 8:08 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by Quetzal
02-14-2003 2:28 AM


Hi Quetzal
Interesting stuff. Can you show me the fossils/figures? Couodn't find them on internet. TiA.
Best wishes,
Peter

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by Quetzal, posted 02-14-2003 2:28 AM Quetzal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 171 by Quetzal, posted 02-15-2003 4:37 AM peter borger has replied

  
peter borger
Member (Idle past 7665 days)
Posts: 965
From: australia
Joined: 07-05-2002


Message 172 of 199 (32344)
02-15-2003 7:40 PM
Reply to: Message 171 by Quetzal
02-15-2003 4:37 AM


Dear Quetzal,
Q: For this one I think you'll have to go to a library and check out a recent edition of Caroll's "Vertebrate Paleontology". I'm not sure what is available on line, if anything. You might try a search for phylogeny Afrotheria Tenrecomorpha.
PB: At last we find a TF and it is not even a Nature paper? How peculiar. Probably nothing transitional here, but a lot of speculation. However, I will check it out. Thanks for the ref.
Best wishes,
Peter

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by Quetzal, posted 02-15-2003 4:37 AM Quetzal has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by mark24, posted 02-15-2003 8:13 PM peter borger has replied

  
peter borger
Member (Idle past 7665 days)
Posts: 965
From: australia
Joined: 07-05-2002


Message 174 of 199 (32348)
02-15-2003 11:02 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by mark24
02-15-2003 8:13 PM


Dear mark,
You say:
I have amended it to be:
"A transitional is a form that possesses character states that are part way between two separate taxa, &/or a mix of discrete characters between two taxa."
Any evo's disagree, or would like to make an addition?
PB: I am waiting for the general agreement of evo's. Furthermore, I am afraid that we also have to define 'character', 'taxa', 'mix' and 'discrete characters'. And "part between" is very, very vague. Let's define it too.
Best wishes,
Peter

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by mark24, posted 02-15-2003 8:13 PM mark24 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by mark24, posted 02-16-2003 5:23 AM peter borger has not replied

  
peter borger
Member (Idle past 7665 days)
Posts: 965
From: australia
Joined: 07-05-2002


Message 179 of 199 (32503)
02-17-2003 8:24 PM
Reply to: Message 178 by mark24
02-17-2003 12:31 PM


dear Mark,
Go ahead, make my day
Peter

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by mark24, posted 02-17-2003 12:31 PM mark24 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by mark24, posted 02-18-2003 9:00 AM peter borger has replied

  
peter borger
Member (Idle past 7665 days)
Posts: 965
From: australia
Joined: 07-05-2002


Message 182 of 199 (33308)
02-26-2003 8:38 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by mark24
02-18-2003 9:00 AM


Hi Mark,
How are you?
From an evolutionary stance this potentially could be a definition for transition form. So, now you have to show me the examples.
Best wishes,
Peter

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by mark24, posted 02-18-2003 9:00 AM mark24 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by mark24, posted 02-26-2003 8:45 PM peter borger has replied

  
peter borger
Member (Idle past 7665 days)
Posts: 965
From: australia
Joined: 07-05-2002


Message 184 of 199 (33323)
02-27-2003 12:18 AM
Reply to: Message 183 by mark24
02-26-2003 8:45 PM


Hi mark,
If we agree that the prediction of the ToE is that transitional forms exist according to the following definition:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"A transitional is a form that possesses character states that are part way between two separate taxa, &/or a mix of discrete characters between two taxa."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Then I'd like to forward Archaeopteryx as a candidate. The two taxa being reptiles & birds.
PB: I thought everybody agreed ages ago that Archie is a bird? What about the furcula?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by mark24, posted 02-26-2003 8:45 PM mark24 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by Peter, posted 02-27-2003 2:45 AM peter borger has not replied
 Message 186 by mark24, posted 02-27-2003 4:50 AM peter borger has not replied

  
peter borger
Member (Idle past 7665 days)
Posts: 965
From: australia
Joined: 07-05-2002


Message 189 of 199 (33660)
03-04-2003 8:35 PM
Reply to: Message 188 by mark24
03-04-2003 8:24 PM


Re: Where areeeee - yoouuuu?
Hi Mark
According to the definition you could take the Archaeopteryx as a TF. And you eagerly do, I know. However, there are some problems with it. I will point it out later. In the meantime be patient. This board isn't going to be closed, is it?
Best wishes,
Peter

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by mark24, posted 03-04-2003 8:24 PM mark24 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by mark24, posted 03-04-2003 8:39 PM peter borger has replied
 Message 194 by wj, posted 03-06-2003 10:40 PM peter borger has not replied
 Message 195 by wj, posted 03-11-2003 5:18 AM peter borger has not replied

  
peter borger
Member (Idle past 7665 days)
Posts: 965
From: australia
Joined: 07-05-2002


Message 191 of 199 (33662)
03-04-2003 8:43 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by mark24
03-04-2003 8:39 PM


I only close topics that I have won.
best wishes,
Peter

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by mark24, posted 03-04-2003 8:39 PM mark24 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 192 by mark24, posted 03-04-2003 8:45 PM peter borger has replied
 Message 197 by mark24, posted 03-13-2003 4:24 AM peter borger has replied

  
peter borger
Member (Idle past 7665 days)
Posts: 965
From: australia
Joined: 07-05-2002


Message 193 of 199 (33664)
03-04-2003 8:48 PM
Reply to: Message 192 by mark24
03-04-2003 8:45 PM


What's the fun about?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by mark24, posted 03-04-2003 8:45 PM mark24 has not replied

  
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