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Author | Topic: Free will: an illusion | |||||||||||||||||||||||
ramoss Member (Idle past 634 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
Free will might be an illusion, but it is a very persistant one..
However, I will agree with you. If anybody knows what your choices are going to be, even before you are presented with the choices, then there is no free will.
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Asgara Member (Idle past 2325 days) Posts: 1783 From: Wisconsin, USA Joined: |
I always believed that the worst issue with free will is the idea of an omni-god, sole creator of life.
An omniscient god, one who knows the outcome before you are born and still allows your creation, makes the illusion of freewill a moot point.
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rgb Inactive Member |
Jar, your answer is great. But let's be honest, you're not the typical christian, not to mention right wing. As a matter of fact, many christians would label you as a damned.
Question to other christians. Does free will include eternal damnation for not choosing to believe?
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Heathen Member (Idle past 1305 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: |
well how about you answer the quesions and ignore other posters
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Heathen Member (Idle past 1305 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: |
creavolution writes: This is Directed at Iano primarily, and intended to discuss the notion of free will. But obviously anyone who shares his views are welcome to respond. thanks jar, but I'm not sure you are the target of this thread
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jar Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Jar, your answer is great. But let's be honest, you're not the typical christian, not to mention right wing. As a matter of fact, many christians would label you as a damned. Really? Seems like looking at the posts of other Christians here I may well be far more representative of Christianity than you might think. We have a few very vocal Christians here who would agree with you, but far more that seem to agree with my point of view. And it looks like more and more voices speaking out against the exclusionary Christians everday. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Heathen Member (Idle past 1305 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: |
discreet label writes:
From our perspective maybe.. but in reality there is no choice.. what will be will be. you still maintain the ability to choose to do whatever you want, or at least the illusion. And the illusion of choice is as realistic as being able to choose.the God that says he gave us free will.. didn't really... he lied.. he just gave us the illusion of free will. he knows what will hapen, what choices we wil make, we are powerless to do anything but follow the path.
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mjfloresta Member (Idle past 6015 days) Posts: 277 From: N.Y. Joined: |
Sour wrote:
fair point, I guess in this case I take issue with the fact that God will punish us for not choosing him, when he provides no hard evidence of his existance.. why not just present us with all the facts and let us choose? why does he choose to play games with us The Scriptures claim that God came down to earth (the incarnation of Christ) and after dying for the sins of the world, gave testimony to his Deity (not to mention power) by resurrecting himself just as He predicted...So I think that God might consider it something of an insult to say that he offers no evidence of his existence when He proved himself quite powerfully and then left his witness with his disciples and the Church...and if that weren't enough, Romans 1:19-20 says
quote: So first God gave the revelation of nature - which according to Paul leaves men "without excuse"...But if that weren't enough...God manifested himself to us through his Son, tangibly in a finite way, at a specific moment in history, at a specific place..etc...In now way then, have God's interactions with man been the least bit ambiguous and to claim such is to poke God in the eye..Believing God does not exist will never make it so...especially when his own Word tells us the contrary...
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mjfloresta Member (Idle past 6015 days) Posts: 277 From: N.Y. Joined: |
ramoss wrote:
However, I will agree with you. If anybody knows what your choices are going to be, even before you are presented with the choices, then there is no free will. I think you're confusing pre-knowledge (foreknowledge) with pre-determination (pre-destination)...just because something is fore-known does not make it pre-destined...
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1489 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Just to let you know - the Bible? Fake. The stuff that it's in it, about what God and Jesus did? Didn't happen.
So, to say "we know God exists because His Word tells us He does" doesn't make any sense - anybody can write a book that says "God exists." There's just as much evidence that the Bible was written by God as there is for God itself - that is to say, absolutely none at all. But the Bible doesn't seem to be on topic here.
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Asgara Member (Idle past 2325 days) Posts: 1783 From: Wisconsin, USA Joined: |
When discussing god and foreknowledge we have to get straight what god you are talking about.
Is this god omniscient? Does s/he/it know your life before you are born? Is this god the sole creator of life?
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mjfloresta Member (Idle past 6015 days) Posts: 277 From: N.Y. Joined: |
Sure, anyone can write anything and claim it to be true...but it may in fact be...and if the Bible is in fact true and therefore God has revealed himself to man...how can it be said that he hasn't? Does God need to hit you with lightning before you believe? what criteria would you set in order to believe God's (or a god's) revelation to man?
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mjfloresta Member (Idle past 6015 days) Posts: 277 From: N.Y. Joined: |
When discussing god and foreknowledge we have to get straight what god you are talking about. Is this god omniscient? Does s/he/it know your life before you are born? Is this god the sole creator of life? When discussing god and foreknowledge we have to get straight what god you are talking about. Is this god omniscient? Does s/he/it know your life before you are born? Is this god the sole creator of life? I don't see why that matters...my point is that fore-knowledge can't be equated with pre-destination...that's all
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Asgara Member (Idle past 2325 days) Posts: 1783 From: Wisconsin, USA Joined: |
Except that the foreknowledge of an omniscient, sole-creator of life makes freewill merely an illusion.
It isn't the foreknowledge alone, it is the knowledge in someone who allowed your creation while knowing your outcome.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1489 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
.and if the Bible is in fact true and therefore God has revealed himself to man...how can it be said that he hasn't? This is supposed to be an argument? Let me turn it around on you - if God has not revealed himself to man and the Bible is in fact not true, how can it be said that it is? People can say all kinds of things. It's what can be supported that is important.
what criteria would you set in order to believe God's (or a god's) revelation to man? God existing. That would be a start.
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