Free will: an illusion

Free will might be an illusion, but it is a very persistant one..However, I will agree with you. If anybody knows what your choices are going to be, even before you are presented with the choices, then there is no free will.

I always believed that the worst issue with free will is the idea of an omni-god, sole creator of life.An omniscient god, one who knows the outcome before you are born and still allows your creation, makes the illusion of freewill a moot point.

Jar, your answer is great. But let's be honest, you're not the typical christian, not to mention right wing. As a matter of fact, many christians would label you as a damned.Question to other christians. Does free will include eternal damnation for not choosing to believe?

well how about you answer the quesions and ignore other posters

thanks jar, but I'm not sure you are the target of this thread

Really? Seems like looking at the posts of other Christians here I may well be far more representative of Christianity than you might think. We have a few very vocal Christians here who would agree with you, but far more that seem to agree with my point of view. And it looks like more and more voices speaking out against the exclusionary Christians everday.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

From our perspective maybe.. but in reality there is no choice.. what will be will be.
the God that says he gave us free will.. didn't really... he lied.. he just gave us the illusion of free will. he knows what will hapen, what choices we wil make, we are powerless to do anything but follow the path.

Sour wrote: The Scriptures claim that God came down to earth (the incarnation of Christ) and after dying for the sins of the world, gave testimony to his Deity (not to mention power) by resurrecting himself just as He predicted...So I think that God might consider it something of an insult to say that he offers no evidence of his existence when He proved himself quite powerfully and then left his witness with his disciples and the Church...and if that weren't enough, Romans 1:19-20 says

quote:

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Since what may be known about God is plain to them because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities - his eternal power and divine nature - have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse

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So first God gave the revelation of nature - which according to Paul leaves men "without excuse"...But if that weren't enough...God manifested himself to us through his Son, tangibly in a finite way, at a specific moment in history, at a specific place..etc...In now way then, have God's interactions with man been the least bit ambiguous and to claim such is to poke God in the eye..Believing God does not exist will never make it so...especially when his own Word tells us the contrary...

ramoss wrote: I think you're confusing pre-knowledge (foreknowledge) with pre-determination (pre-destination)...just because something is fore-known does not make it pre-destined...

Just to let you know - the Bible? Fake. The stuff that it's in it, about what God and Jesus did? Didn't happen.So, to say "we know God exists because His Word tells us He does" doesn't make any sense - anybody can write a book that says "God exists." There's just as much evidence that the Bible was written by God as there is for God itself - that is to say, absolutely none at all.But the Bible doesn't seem to be on topic here.

When discussing god and foreknowledge we have to get straight what god you are talking about.Is this god omniscient? Does s/he/it know your life before you are born?Is this god the sole creator of life?

Sure, anyone can write anything and claim it to be true...but it may in fact be...and if the Bible is in fact true and therefore God has revealed himself to man...how can it be said that he hasn't? Does God need to hit you with lightning before you believe? what criteria would you set in order to believe God's (or a god's) revelation to man?

I don't see why that matters...my point is that fore-knowledge can't be equated with pre-destination...that's all

Except that the foreknowledge of an omniscient, sole-creator of life makes freewill merely an illusion.It isn't the foreknowledge alone, it is the knowledge in someone who allowed your creation while knowing your outcome.

This is supposed to be an argument? Let me turn it around on you - if God has not revealed himself to man and the Bible is in fact not true, how can it be said that it is?People can say all kinds of things. It's what can be supported that is important. God existing. That would be a start.