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Author | Topic: Free will: an illusion | |||||||||||||||||||||||
mjfloresta Member (Idle past 6021 days) Posts: 277 From: N.Y. Joined: |
what criteria would you set in order to believe God's (or a god's) revelation to man? God existing. That would be a start. Let's try that again..what proof would be sufficient to you that God exists? what form do you need...an e-mail? an auto biography? maybe he needs a publicist? what?
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1495 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Let's try that again..what proof would be sufficient to you that God exists? Again, his existence. If God actually existed there really wouldn't be any question about it. But this isn't the topic of the thread. Edited by crashfrog, : No reason given.
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mjfloresta Member (Idle past 6021 days) Posts: 277 From: N.Y. Joined: |
Fine, we're veering off topic and this will be the last I have to say but how circular can your reasoning be? your proof that God exists is his existence?! THAT really answers the question, thanks...
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Nighttrain Member (Idle past 4021 days) Posts: 1512 From: brisbane,australia Joined: |
Could you, O Noble Pond-hopper, explain to me why, if freewill is such a big deal to Christians, that the religious right, fundies, etc. feel free to inflict THEIR freewill on mine?:-P
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Heathen Member (Idle past 1311 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: |
You ever heard of the flying spaghetti monster? Giant Pink unicorn?
can you prove they don't exist? anyway.. this is off topic for this thread.. please take this discussion elsewhere
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mjfloresta Member (Idle past 6021 days) Posts: 277 From: N.Y. Joined: |
The point is not that I'm claiming that something exists which you have no way of proving otherwise...all i'm asking is since people want to reject the proof of God that exists, then, hypothetically speaking (since none of the actual proof is sufficient), what proof or what type of proof would be required for you to believe in God's existence...Trite answers like "if God existed it would be obvious" don't cut it - and they certainly don't conform to the "scientific" standard that supposedly is so highly esteemed around here...
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1495 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Why don't you look up the thread where we discussed this exact subject?
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Asgara Member (Idle past 2330 days) Posts: 1783 From: Wisconsin, USA Joined: |
My last reply to you, Message 29, was on topic - Freewill.
Are you planning on addressing it?
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mjfloresta Member (Idle past 6021 days) Posts: 277 From: N.Y. Joined: |
Which is?
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1495 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
It's probably called "what would be proof of god?" or something.
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mjfloresta Member (Idle past 6021 days) Posts: 277 From: N.Y. Joined: |
Sorry 'bout that..I missed it...
I think you're missing the distinction between the two words...Foreknowledge is NOT Predestination - even if it's hard for you to imagine; just because someone sees an event prior to its occurence it does not follow that that person caused the event...
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Asgara Member (Idle past 2330 days) Posts: 1783 From: Wisconsin, USA Joined: |
No dear, I'm not missing the distinction.
The issue is not foreknowledge....it is foreknowledge of an omniscient, sole creator of life. If your god is not omniscient and doesn't know your outcome before you are born then I have no problem. If your god is not the sole creator of life, if some other entity or no entity at all is responsible for life then I have no problem. If your god IS the omniscient, sole creator of life then freewill is merely an illusion. If your god knows that "joe" will die an atheist and still allows joe to be born, then joe has no real choice in the matter. What's more your god just became capricious and cruel.
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mjfloresta Member (Idle past 6021 days) Posts: 277 From: N.Y. Joined: |
OK
Scenario A: God is omnipotent, creates mankind, but doesn't know whether they will "accept" or "reject" him...they have free will...You would agree that they truly have the option to choose, correct? Scenario B: Same as above except that God knows in advance who will accept and who will reject him...how does his knowing this in advance become a causal agent for determining who will reject and accept him?
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Asgara Member (Idle past 2330 days) Posts: 1783 From: Wisconsin, USA Joined: |
Scenario A:
If you are saying that s/he/it isn't omniscient and does not know the outcome of one's life, then I have no problem with it. Scenario B:If god knows in advance that "joe" will die as an atheist and still allowed joe to be born then joe has no choice. It not only is foreknown by god, but in allowing him to be born god is creating someone solely to die an atheist. Again, the issue isn't the foreknowledge by itself. The issue comes into play when you have this foreknowledge exhibited by the sole entity capable of creating one's life. A god who is not the sole creator of life may know the outcome of any given life but not have had the power to create or prevent the creation of this life. If this foreknowledge is perfect that still puts a restriction on freewill that can be discussed. But being the sole entity capable of creating life, and allowing the creation of this life knowing what choices will be made negates any freewill argument.
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mjfloresta Member (Idle past 6021 days) Posts: 277 From: N.Y. Joined: |
I disagree..God creating men knowing the choices they will make - and going further than that, choosing to create men that he knows will make a specific choice, in no way negates their will in choosing that choice...Knowing what choices will be made does not equal making those choices for someone...
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