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Author Topic:   Free will: an illusion
mjfloresta
Member (Idle past 5994 days)
Posts: 277
From: N.Y.
Joined: 06-08-2006


Message 31 of 309 (321658)
06-14-2006 11:46 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by crashfrog
06-14-2006 11:19 PM


Re: No Proof?
what criteria would you set in order to believe God's (or a god's) revelation to man?
God existing. That would be a start.
Let's try that again..what proof would be sufficient to you that God exists? what form do you need...an e-mail? an auto biography? maybe he needs a publicist? what?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by crashfrog, posted 06-14-2006 11:19 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by crashfrog, posted 06-14-2006 11:48 PM mjfloresta has replied
 Message 35 by Heathen, posted 06-15-2006 12:08 AM mjfloresta has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 32 of 309 (321660)
06-14-2006 11:48 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by mjfloresta
06-14-2006 11:46 PM


Re: No Proof?
Let's try that again..what proof would be sufficient to you that God exists?
Again, his existence. If God actually existed there really wouldn't be any question about it. But this isn't the topic of the thread.
Edited by crashfrog, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by mjfloresta, posted 06-14-2006 11:46 PM mjfloresta has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by mjfloresta, posted 06-14-2006 11:52 PM crashfrog has not replied

mjfloresta
Member (Idle past 5994 days)
Posts: 277
From: N.Y.
Joined: 06-08-2006


Message 33 of 309 (321661)
06-14-2006 11:52 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by crashfrog
06-14-2006 11:48 PM


Re: No Proof?
Fine, we're veering off topic and this will be the last I have to say but how circular can your reasoning be? your proof that God exists is his existence?! THAT really answers the question, thanks...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by crashfrog, posted 06-14-2006 11:48 PM crashfrog has not replied

Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 3994 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 34 of 309 (321662)
06-15-2006 12:06 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by crashfrog
06-14-2006 11:19 PM


Re: No Proof?
Could you, O Noble Pond-hopper, explain to me why, if freewill is such a big deal to Christians, that the religious right, fundies, etc. feel free to inflict THEIR freewill on mine?:-P

This message is a reply to:
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Heathen
Member (Idle past 1284 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 35 of 309 (321663)
06-15-2006 12:08 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by mjfloresta
06-14-2006 11:46 PM


Re: No Proof?
You ever heard of the flying spaghetti monster? Giant Pink unicorn?
can you prove they don't exist?
anyway.. this is off topic for this thread.. please take this discussion elsewhere

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by mjfloresta, posted 06-14-2006 11:46 PM mjfloresta has replied

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mjfloresta
Member (Idle past 5994 days)
Posts: 277
From: N.Y.
Joined: 06-08-2006


Message 36 of 309 (321664)
06-15-2006 12:13 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by Heathen
06-15-2006 12:08 AM


Re: No Proof?
The point is not that I'm claiming that something exists which you have no way of proving otherwise...all i'm asking is since people want to reject the proof of God that exists, then, hypothetically speaking (since none of the actual proof is sufficient), what proof or what type of proof would be required for you to believe in God's existence...Trite answers like "if God existed it would be obvious" don't cut it - and they certainly don't conform to the "scientific" standard that supposedly is so highly esteemed around here...

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Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by crashfrog, posted 06-15-2006 12:17 AM mjfloresta has replied
 Message 38 by Asgara, posted 06-15-2006 12:21 AM mjfloresta has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 37 of 309 (321665)
06-15-2006 12:17 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by mjfloresta
06-15-2006 12:13 AM


Re: No Proof?
Why don't you look up the thread where we discussed this exact subject?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by mjfloresta, posted 06-15-2006 12:13 AM mjfloresta has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by mjfloresta, posted 06-15-2006 12:22 AM crashfrog has replied

Asgara
Member (Idle past 2303 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 38 of 309 (321668)
06-15-2006 12:21 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by mjfloresta
06-15-2006 12:13 AM


Topic = Freewill
My last reply to you, Message 29, was on topic - Freewill.
Are you planning on addressing it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by mjfloresta, posted 06-15-2006 12:13 AM mjfloresta has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by mjfloresta, posted 06-15-2006 12:26 AM Asgara has replied

mjfloresta
Member (Idle past 5994 days)
Posts: 277
From: N.Y.
Joined: 06-08-2006


Message 39 of 309 (321669)
06-15-2006 12:22 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by crashfrog
06-15-2006 12:17 AM


Re: No Proof?
Which is?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by crashfrog, posted 06-15-2006 12:17 AM crashfrog has replied

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 40 of 309 (321670)
06-15-2006 12:23 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by mjfloresta
06-15-2006 12:22 AM


Re: No Proof?
It's probably called "what would be proof of god?" or something.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by mjfloresta, posted 06-15-2006 12:22 AM mjfloresta has not replied

mjfloresta
Member (Idle past 5994 days)
Posts: 277
From: N.Y.
Joined: 06-08-2006


Message 41 of 309 (321671)
06-15-2006 12:26 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by Asgara
06-15-2006 12:21 AM


Re: Topic = Freewill
Sorry 'bout that..I missed it...
I think you're missing the distinction between the two words...Foreknowledge is NOT Predestination - even if it's hard for you to imagine; just because someone sees an event prior to its occurence it does not follow that that person caused the event...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Asgara, posted 06-15-2006 12:21 AM Asgara has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Asgara, posted 06-15-2006 12:33 AM mjfloresta has replied

Asgara
Member (Idle past 2303 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 42 of 309 (321673)
06-15-2006 12:33 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by mjfloresta
06-15-2006 12:26 AM


Re: Topic = Freewill
No dear, I'm not missing the distinction.
The issue is not foreknowledge....it is foreknowledge of an omniscient, sole creator of life.
If your god is not omniscient and doesn't know your outcome before you are born then I have no problem. If your god is not the sole creator of life, if some other entity or no entity at all is responsible for life then I have no problem.
If your god IS the omniscient, sole creator of life then freewill is merely an illusion. If your god knows that "joe" will die an atheist and still allows joe to be born, then joe has no real choice in the matter. What's more your god just became capricious and cruel.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by mjfloresta, posted 06-15-2006 12:26 AM mjfloresta has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by mjfloresta, posted 06-15-2006 12:51 AM Asgara has replied

mjfloresta
Member (Idle past 5994 days)
Posts: 277
From: N.Y.
Joined: 06-08-2006


Message 43 of 309 (321675)
06-15-2006 12:51 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by Asgara
06-15-2006 12:33 AM


Re: Topic = Freewill
OK
Scenario A:
God is omnipotent, creates mankind, but doesn't know whether they will "accept" or "reject" him...they have free will...
You would agree that they truly have the option to choose, correct?
Scenario B:
Same as above except that God knows in advance who will accept and who will reject him...how does his knowing this in advance become a causal agent for determining who will reject and accept him?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Asgara, posted 06-15-2006 12:33 AM Asgara has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Asgara, posted 06-15-2006 1:00 AM mjfloresta has replied

Asgara
Member (Idle past 2303 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 44 of 309 (321677)
06-15-2006 1:00 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by mjfloresta
06-15-2006 12:51 AM


Re: Topic = Freewill
Scenario A:
If you are saying that s/he/it isn't omniscient and does not know the outcome of one's life, then I have no problem with it.
Scenario B:
If god knows in advance that "joe" will die as an atheist and still allowed joe to be born then joe has no choice. It not only is foreknown by god, but in allowing him to be born god is creating someone solely to die an atheist.
Again, the issue isn't the foreknowledge by itself. The issue comes into play when you have this foreknowledge exhibited by the sole entity capable of creating one's life.
A god who is not the sole creator of life may know the outcome of any given life but not have had the power to create or prevent the creation of this life. If this foreknowledge is perfect that still puts a restriction on freewill that can be discussed. But being the sole entity capable of creating life, and allowing the creation of this life knowing what choices will be made negates any freewill argument.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by mjfloresta, posted 06-15-2006 12:51 AM mjfloresta has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by mjfloresta, posted 06-15-2006 1:05 AM Asgara has replied

mjfloresta
Member (Idle past 5994 days)
Posts: 277
From: N.Y.
Joined: 06-08-2006


Message 45 of 309 (321679)
06-15-2006 1:05 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by Asgara
06-15-2006 1:00 AM


Re: Topic = Freewill
I disagree..God creating men knowing the choices they will make - and going further than that, choosing to create men that he knows will make a specific choice, in no way negates their will in choosing that choice...Knowing what choices will be made does not equal making those choices for someone...

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by Asgara, posted 06-15-2006 1:07 AM mjfloresta has replied

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