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Author Topic:   Free will: an illusion
Asgara
Member (Idle past 2303 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 46 of 309 (321681)
06-15-2006 1:07 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by mjfloresta
06-15-2006 1:05 AM


Re: Topic = Freewill
If god knows you will live your entire life an atheist, and die that way also...do you have any choice to change that situation?
Edited by Asgara, : change "and" to "an"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by mjfloresta, posted 06-15-2006 1:05 AM mjfloresta has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by mjfloresta, posted 06-15-2006 1:11 AM Asgara has replied

rgb
Inactive Member


Message 47 of 309 (321682)
06-15-2006 1:09 AM


Question directed at christians not like jar
Does free will include eternal damnation for those that chose to not believe?

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by mjfloresta, posted 06-15-2006 1:13 AM rgb has replied

mjfloresta
Member (Idle past 5994 days)
Posts: 277
From: N.Y.
Joined: 06-08-2006


Message 48 of 309 (321683)
06-15-2006 1:11 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by Asgara
06-15-2006 1:07 AM


Re: Topic = Freewill
Maybe not, but that's true whether God knows that in advance or not...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Asgara, posted 06-15-2006 1:07 AM Asgara has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Asgara, posted 06-15-2006 1:13 AM mjfloresta has replied
 Message 50 by rgb, posted 06-15-2006 1:13 AM mjfloresta has not replied

Asgara
Member (Idle past 2303 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 49 of 309 (321688)
06-15-2006 1:13 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by mjfloresta
06-15-2006 1:11 AM


Re: Topic = Freewill
You say you may not have the choice to change your situation but continue to claim that you have the ability to choose.
If you do not have the ability to change anything god already knows, then what is freewill?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by mjfloresta, posted 06-15-2006 1:11 AM mjfloresta has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by mjfloresta, posted 06-15-2006 1:23 AM Asgara has not replied

rgb
Inactive Member


Message 50 of 309 (321689)
06-15-2006 1:13 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by mjfloresta
06-15-2006 1:11 AM


Re: Topic = Freewill
Could you elaborate on that, please?

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 Message 48 by mjfloresta, posted 06-15-2006 1:11 AM mjfloresta has not replied

mjfloresta
Member (Idle past 5994 days)
Posts: 277
From: N.Y.
Joined: 06-08-2006


Message 51 of 309 (321690)
06-15-2006 1:13 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by rgb
06-15-2006 1:09 AM


Re: Question directed at christians not like jar
What do you mean, does free will "include" eternal damnation for those that choose not to believe? Eternal damnation is the punishment for not believing, according to the Bible, regardless of whether the mechanism for not believing is free-will or predestination...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by rgb, posted 06-15-2006 1:09 AM rgb has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by rgb, posted 06-15-2006 1:17 AM mjfloresta has replied

rgb
Inactive Member


Message 52 of 309 (321691)
06-15-2006 1:17 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by mjfloresta
06-15-2006 1:13 AM


Re: Question directed at christians not like jar
Perhaps I should elaborate.
First of all, look up the word "impale" and "impalement" on google.
Say that I am the dark prince Dracula. I give you two glasses of wine, one red and one blue. I tell you that you have a choice of either drinking out of one or the other, but not both. However, if you choose to drink the blue glass, I will impale you alive. But if you drink out of the red glass, I will give you money.
In such situation, have I given you "free will"?
Edited by rgb, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by mjfloresta, posted 06-15-2006 1:13 AM mjfloresta has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by mjfloresta, posted 06-15-2006 1:26 AM rgb has replied
 Message 57 by arachnophilia, posted 06-15-2006 1:38 AM rgb has replied
 Message 85 by rgb, posted 06-15-2006 1:14 PM rgb has not replied

mjfloresta
Member (Idle past 5994 days)
Posts: 277
From: N.Y.
Joined: 06-08-2006


Message 53 of 309 (321693)
06-15-2006 1:23 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by Asgara
06-15-2006 1:13 AM


Re: Topic = Freewill
OK, everyone seems to be looking at God's foreknowledge as a hurt to free-will rather than as a boon to God...
Let's look back at life from the end viewpoint...we'll use the hypothetical end of my life in hopefully many decades...at the end of my life I will have made thousands of decisions - small, large, HUGE, ones, that ultimately affect the course of my life...I could have made other decisions affecting the ultimate outcome - perhaps an inifinite number of different outcomes...Once I've finished my life, there's no going back...each decision that I have made is done with for all eternity - I can't undo them...they're permanent...Now let's suppose that someone on this forum who I never met in life knew the entire course of my life before I made a single decision...Granted in this world we can't conceive of anyone who has the ability to know that, but if that person in fact existed, would their pre-knowledge of my decisions have any affect on my decisions? No..they would not...that person's pre-knowledge of my life would have absolutely no impact on the decisions that I make...Am I free to make my own decisions? sure, but then that person's preknowledge of those decisions would reflect those decisions that I actually make in life...
Think about it this way: It's as if the event is the cause and the foreknowledge is the effect....except the foreknowledge temporally comes first...but not causally...

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Heathen, posted 06-15-2006 1:38 AM mjfloresta has replied
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mjfloresta
Member (Idle past 5994 days)
Posts: 277
From: N.Y.
Joined: 06-08-2006


Message 54 of 309 (321697)
06-15-2006 1:26 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by rgb
06-15-2006 1:17 AM


Re: Question directed at christians not like jar
Certainly, you've given me free-will within a specific context...as is all free will...
Why is all free will within a specific context? because we live in a physical world with physical laws governing it...
I may want a million dollars to magically appear but I can't manifest that as reality...
If I am driving and the cops pull me over i have two choices: stop, or run...my choices are constrained by a reality not of my own making...still the choice is mine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by rgb, posted 06-15-2006 1:17 AM rgb has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by rgb, posted 06-15-2006 1:35 AM mjfloresta has not replied
 Message 58 by Heathen, posted 06-15-2006 1:41 AM mjfloresta has replied

rgb
Inactive Member


Message 55 of 309 (321699)
06-15-2006 1:35 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by mjfloresta
06-15-2006 1:26 AM


Re: Question directed at christians not like jar
Thank you for answering the question.
Any other christian who wants to take a stab at this?

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 Message 54 by mjfloresta, posted 06-15-2006 1:26 AM mjfloresta has not replied

Heathen
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 56 of 309 (321701)
06-15-2006 1:38 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by mjfloresta
06-15-2006 1:23 AM


Re: Topic = Freewill
mj writes:
would their pre-knowledge of my decisions have any affect on my decisions?
It's not that the fore knowledge affects the decision, but rather that because the decion is foreknown.. it follos that there is only one decision you will make...
so what choice is there? really?
you have a choice of A or B
God knows you will choose A
you choose A (as god predicted)
there was no chance of you choosing B...
There was no real choice.. for a moment you had the illusion of choice, but you were always going to choose A. God knew that. He created you that way.
now.. if choice A was to be an athiest.. you are now destined for hell
What kind of god, created a being that is destined for hell.. with no chance of a way out?
a cruel, spiteful, evil god.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by mjfloresta, posted 06-15-2006 1:23 AM mjfloresta has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by mjfloresta, posted 06-15-2006 1:42 AM Heathen has replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 57 of 309 (321702)
06-15-2006 1:38 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by rgb
06-15-2006 1:17 AM


CAKE OR DEATH!
In such situation, have I given you "free will"?
no, you have not. people (even vampires) do not grant free will. you've just given someone a very easy and obvious choice. one that may, in fact, be against someone's personal preference.
lots of dictators stay in power this way -- they continually get re-elected by a legitimate democratic election. just with the stipulation that if you don't vote for them, you die. it's not a GOOD choice, but it is a choice. are you willing to die for what you believe?
but you are right in that it doesn't make god appear to be very fair. i personally do not believe in a hell. i'm not even sure about heaven.
I will give you money.
how much money?
(also, i ordered the vegetarian)
Edited by arachnophilia, : typo


This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by rgb, posted 06-15-2006 1:17 AM rgb has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by rgb, posted 06-15-2006 2:35 AM arachnophilia has replied

Heathen
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 58 of 309 (321703)
06-15-2006 1:41 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by mjfloresta
06-15-2006 1:26 AM


Re: Question directed at christians not like jar
mj writes:
still the choice is mine
how can it be.. God knows the outcome.. he created you such that there would be only one outcome either stop or run.. whichever one you choose was foreknown.. It was the only outcome possible..it was predestined.
there is only the illusion of choice.
From gods point of view you have no choices.. you are playing out what he knows will happen. nothing more.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by mjfloresta, posted 06-15-2006 1:26 AM mjfloresta has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by mjfloresta, posted 06-15-2006 1:45 AM Heathen has replied

mjfloresta
Member (Idle past 5994 days)
Posts: 277
From: N.Y.
Joined: 06-08-2006


Message 59 of 309 (321704)
06-15-2006 1:42 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by Heathen
06-15-2006 1:38 AM


Re: Topic = Freewill
Yes, but the foreknowledge is directly affected/controlled by the action
You have a choice of A or B
You choose A
God knew you would choose A
BUT
Again you have a choice of A or B
You choose B this time
God knew you would choose B
The foreknowledge is merely consistent with the reality

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Heathen, posted 06-15-2006 1:38 AM Heathen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Heathen, posted 06-15-2006 1:46 AM mjfloresta has replied

mjfloresta
Member (Idle past 5994 days)
Posts: 277
From: N.Y.
Joined: 06-08-2006


Message 60 of 309 (321705)
06-15-2006 1:45 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by Heathen
06-15-2006 1:41 AM


Re: Question directed at christians not like jar
how can it be.. God knows the outcome.. he created you such that there would be only one outcome either stop or run.. whichever one you choose was foreknown.. It was the only outcome possible..it was predestined.
there is only the illusion of choice.
From gods point of view you have no choices.. you are playing out what he knows will happen. nothing more.
That's predestination - a whole 'nother story

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Heathen, posted 06-15-2006 1:41 AM Heathen has replied

Replies to this message:
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