|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total) |
| |
popoi | |
Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 0/13 Hour: 0/0 |
Thread ▼ Details |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: Free will: an illusion | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Asgara Member (Idle past 2303 days) Posts: 1783 From: Wisconsin, USA Joined: |
If god knows you will live your entire life an atheist, and die that way also...do you have any choice to change that situation?
Edited by Asgara, : change "and" to "an"
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
rgb Inactive Member |
Does free will include eternal damnation for those that chose to not believe?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
mjfloresta Member (Idle past 5994 days) Posts: 277 From: N.Y. Joined: |
Maybe not, but that's true whether God knows that in advance or not...
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Asgara Member (Idle past 2303 days) Posts: 1783 From: Wisconsin, USA Joined: |
You say you may not have the choice to change your situation but continue to claim that you have the ability to choose.
If you do not have the ability to change anything god already knows, then what is freewill?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
rgb Inactive Member |
Could you elaborate on that, please?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
mjfloresta Member (Idle past 5994 days) Posts: 277 From: N.Y. Joined: |
What do you mean, does free will "include" eternal damnation for those that choose not to believe? Eternal damnation is the punishment for not believing, according to the Bible, regardless of whether the mechanism for not believing is free-will or predestination...
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
rgb Inactive Member |
Perhaps I should elaborate.
First of all, look up the word "impale" and "impalement" on google. Say that I am the dark prince Dracula. I give you two glasses of wine, one red and one blue. I tell you that you have a choice of either drinking out of one or the other, but not both. However, if you choose to drink the blue glass, I will impale you alive. But if you drink out of the red glass, I will give you money. In such situation, have I given you "free will"? Edited by rgb, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
mjfloresta Member (Idle past 5994 days) Posts: 277 From: N.Y. Joined: |
OK, everyone seems to be looking at God's foreknowledge as a hurt to free-will rather than as a boon to God...
Let's look back at life from the end viewpoint...we'll use the hypothetical end of my life in hopefully many decades...at the end of my life I will have made thousands of decisions - small, large, HUGE, ones, that ultimately affect the course of my life...I could have made other decisions affecting the ultimate outcome - perhaps an inifinite number of different outcomes...Once I've finished my life, there's no going back...each decision that I have made is done with for all eternity - I can't undo them...they're permanent...Now let's suppose that someone on this forum who I never met in life knew the entire course of my life before I made a single decision...Granted in this world we can't conceive of anyone who has the ability to know that, but if that person in fact existed, would their pre-knowledge of my decisions have any affect on my decisions? No..they would not...that person's pre-knowledge of my life would have absolutely no impact on the decisions that I make...Am I free to make my own decisions? sure, but then that person's preknowledge of those decisions would reflect those decisions that I actually make in life... Think about it this way: It's as if the event is the cause and the foreknowledge is the effect....except the foreknowledge temporally comes first...but not causally...
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
mjfloresta Member (Idle past 5994 days) Posts: 277 From: N.Y. Joined: |
Certainly, you've given me free-will within a specific context...as is all free will...
Why is all free will within a specific context? because we live in a physical world with physical laws governing it... I may want a million dollars to magically appear but I can't manifest that as reality... If I am driving and the cops pull me over i have two choices: stop, or run...my choices are constrained by a reality not of my own making...still the choice is mine
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
rgb Inactive Member |
Thank you for answering the question.
Any other christian who wants to take a stab at this?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Heathen Member (Idle past 1283 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: |
mj writes:
It's not that the fore knowledge affects the decision, but rather that because the decion is foreknown.. it follos that there is only one decision you will make... would their pre-knowledge of my decisions have any affect on my decisions?so what choice is there? really? you have a choice of A or BGod knows you will choose A you choose A (as god predicted) there was no chance of you choosing B...There was no real choice.. for a moment you had the illusion of choice, but you were always going to choose A. God knew that. He created you that way. now.. if choice A was to be an athiest.. you are now destined for hell What kind of god, created a being that is destined for hell.. with no chance of a way out? a cruel, spiteful, evil god.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1344 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
In such situation, have I given you "free will"? no, you have not. people (even vampires) do not grant free will. you've just given someone a very easy and obvious choice. one that may, in fact, be against someone's personal preference. lots of dictators stay in power this way -- they continually get re-elected by a legitimate democratic election. just with the stipulation that if you don't vote for them, you die. it's not a GOOD choice, but it is a choice. are you willing to die for what you believe? but you are right in that it doesn't make god appear to be very fair. i personally do not believe in a hell. i'm not even sure about heaven.
I will give you money. how much money? (also, i ordered the vegetarian) Edited by arachnophilia, : typo
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Heathen Member (Idle past 1283 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: |
mj writes: still the choice is mine how can it be.. God knows the outcome.. he created you such that there would be only one outcome either stop or run.. whichever one you choose was foreknown.. It was the only outcome possible..it was predestined. there is only the illusion of choice. From gods point of view you have no choices.. you are playing out what he knows will happen. nothing more.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
mjfloresta Member (Idle past 5994 days) Posts: 277 From: N.Y. Joined: |
Yes, but the foreknowledge is directly affected/controlled by the action
You have a choice of A or BYou choose A God knew you would choose A BUT Again you have a choice of A or BYou choose B this time God knew you would choose B The foreknowledge is merely consistent with the reality
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
mjfloresta Member (Idle past 5994 days) Posts: 277 From: N.Y. Joined: |
how can it be.. God knows the outcome.. he created you such that there would be only one outcome either stop or run.. whichever one you choose was foreknown.. It was the only outcome possible..it was predestined. there is only the illusion of choice. From gods point of view you have no choices.. you are playing out what he knows will happen. nothing more. That's predestination - a whole 'nother story
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024