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Author | Topic: Free will: an illusion | |||||||||||||||||||
Heathen Member (Idle past 1305 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: |
so how many realities are there?
the point is you chose A (as per god's foreknowledge).. there was no circumstance under which you would choose B, then god would be wrong.. I'll have to continue tomorrow... sleepy time...
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Heathen Member (Idle past 1305 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: |
you're not convincing me...
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mjfloresta Member (Idle past 6015 days) Posts: 277 From: N.Y. Joined: |
all right, later..
There's only reality - the one that actually happensThat reality is not constrained or guided by foreknowledge; rather the foreknowledge merely reflects (in advance) what will be...
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rgb Inactive Member |
"Spider dude" writes
quote:Hey, I never said that.
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1366 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
quote:Hey, I never said that. hmm. then i guess i must have.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17825 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
You're making a common mistake.
It is correct to say that foreknowledge doesn't (necessarily) constrain the future (it might, but there need not be a causal link). But it's wrong to say that foreknowledge is compatible with a future that is not constrained. Foreknowledge is only possible if the future is fixed (at least to the extent that what is foreseen MUST happen)..
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1366 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
Foreknowledge is only possible if the future is fixed not to be a smartass, but why? since one of the concepts in question here is god, supposing the existance of god, and that god is indeed omniscient, why couldn't his fore-knowledge include all possible outcomes. basically, what if god is an infinite quantum computer?
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PaulK Member Posts: 17825 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
If there are multiple possible outcomes and God knows all of them then God can't meaningfully predict the future other than to say "one of these several things will happen...". And if God actually sends a prophecy that one of those things will happen it will often turn out to be wrong (if you hold to the idea of multiple timelines it will inevitably be wrong in some of them)
So really that isn't what we would think of as the full foreknowledge attributed to God in the Bible.
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1366 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
If there are multiple possible outcomes and God knows all of them then God can't meaningfully predict the future other than to say "one of these several things will happen..." or rather, all of them. maybe the trick is destroying the universes that don't go your way?
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iano Member (Idle past 1963 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
I'm afraid the evangelist/argumentitive git in me would make that very difficult. I've tried that before and failed. No reason to suppose otherwise here. I have after all, predicted that this thread would become what it has become. Er...busy.
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cavediver Member (Idle past 3665 days) Posts: 4129 From: UK Joined: |
Hi Jar!
Your salvation will depend on how you live your life. I've been wanting to bring up a topic related to this for ages. I thought in your mind everyone was saved? Can you lose this salvation? OK, I'm going to spin this off to a new thread... will you join me?
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fallacycop Member (Idle past 5542 days) Posts: 692 From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil Joined: |
mjfloresta writes: By definition the timeline is an ordered sequence of events with cause coming before and effect coming after (That IS the definition of before and after) Think about it this way: It's as if the event is the cause and the foreknowledge is the effect....except the foreknowledge temporally comes first...but not causally... Off course, for the definition above to make any sense, there must be an orderable colection of events, precluding the possibility of something coming both before and after something else. Your idea of foreknowlege is intended to be an exception to the rule above. It comes after the event (otherwise it's not an effect as you stated), and it also comes before the event (otherwise it's not foreknowlege as stated). But in what meaningfull way does it come before the event unless it is also a cause for that event? (Otherwise to lable it as foreknowlege would just be a play with words). But if it is a cause to that event it will influence it and mess up the idea of free will. The only possible conclusion is that the idea of an all knowing god being compatible with the idea of free will is just a meaningless wordplay by people that want to have their cake and eat it.
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cavediver Member (Idle past 3665 days) Posts: 4129 From: UK Joined: |
The only possible conclusion is that the idea of an all knowing god being compatible with the idea of free will is just a meaningless wordplay by people that want to have their cake and eat it. So you would also conclude that a universe that allows closed-timelike-curves (backwards time-travel) also removes the possibility of free-will, as it would obviously introduce foreknowledge?
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Heathen Member (Idle past 1305 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: |
I would also like to have the other point discussed..
creavolution writes:
3) Without the ability to even discern what information is correct (due to our 'fallen state'), free will is irrelevant, pointless, wasted. and point 2 doesn't even come into play.
So.. if (for arguments sake) we assume that mj is correct, and- we have free will (despite foreknowledge) - We consider making a decision without information to be free will What about our ability to make a decision? according to the bible, we are 'fallen' we cannot be trusted to make decisions because our fallen state prevents us from understanding the evidence or information. what good is free will if we are unable to use it wisely? Edited by Creavolution, : removed reference to iano
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ikabod Member (Idle past 4515 days) Posts: 365 From: UK Joined: |
1) Free will is an Illusion, since God knows what will happen, what choices we will make.
****** if god is all powerful can he not change the rules that we live with in a "bubble" of free will , that at the same time he knows all but we have free will... he made the universe so he can set the rules ,given he is outside time every thing may be a massive now with out past or future from god view point.. all events are similtanious.******* 2) Without the relevant information to make an informed choice our 'Free will' is not free at all. ******only if you wish to analyis your choice and you assume that there is a right or wrong one ... if you had all the info , would you pick a bad choice just to exersize your free will ?...******* 3) Without the ability to even discern what information is correct (due to our 'fallen state'), free will is irrelevant, pointless, wasted. and point 2 doesn't even come into play. **** as point 2 , if you have free will you can make a uninformed choice ... you nwant to be able to pick your choice based on so scale ... but what scale do you want .. and even nthen .. with free will you can still pick any choice ****** you can not claim that if god give you the instructions on how to be save .. you have no free will and also claim lack of infomation on how to be save means no free will ...
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