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Author Topic:   Free will: an illusion
Heathen
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 61 of 309 (321706)
06-15-2006 1:46 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by mjfloresta
06-15-2006 1:42 AM


Re: Topic = Freewill
so how many realities are there?
the point is you chose A (as per god's foreknowledge).. there was no circumstance under which you would choose B, then god would be wrong..
I'll have to continue tomorrow... sleepy time...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by mjfloresta, posted 06-15-2006 1:42 AM mjfloresta has replied

Replies to this message:
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Heathen
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 62 of 309 (321707)
06-15-2006 1:46 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by mjfloresta
06-15-2006 1:45 AM


Re: Question directed at christians not like jar
you're not convincing me...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by mjfloresta, posted 06-15-2006 1:45 AM mjfloresta has not replied

mjfloresta
Member (Idle past 5993 days)
Posts: 277
From: N.Y.
Joined: 06-08-2006


Message 63 of 309 (321708)
06-15-2006 1:48 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by Heathen
06-15-2006 1:46 AM


Re: Topic = Freewill
all right, later..
There's only reality - the one that actually happens
That reality is not constrained or guided by foreknowledge; rather the foreknowledge merely reflects (in advance) what will be...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Heathen, posted 06-15-2006 1:46 AM Heathen has not replied

Replies to this message:
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rgb
Inactive Member


Message 64 of 309 (321717)
06-15-2006 2:35 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by arachnophilia
06-15-2006 1:38 AM


Re: CAKE OR DEATH!
"Spider dude" writes
quote:
but you are right in that it doesn't make god appear to be very fair.
Hey, I never said that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by arachnophilia, posted 06-15-2006 1:38 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 65 of 309 (321723)
06-15-2006 2:50 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by rgb
06-15-2006 2:35 AM


Re: CAKE OR DEATH!
quote:
but you are right in that it doesn't make god appear to be very fair.
Hey, I never said that.
hmm. then i guess i must have.


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 Message 64 by rgb, posted 06-15-2006 2:35 AM rgb has not replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 66 of 309 (321726)
06-15-2006 2:54 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by mjfloresta
06-15-2006 1:48 AM


Re: Topic = Freewill
You're making a common mistake.
It is correct to say that foreknowledge doesn't (necessarily) constrain the future (it might, but there need not be a causal link). But it's wrong to say that foreknowledge is compatible with a future that is not constrained. Foreknowledge is only possible if the future is fixed (at least to the extent that what is foreseen MUST happen)..

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Replies to this message:
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 67 of 309 (321729)
06-15-2006 3:18 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by PaulK
06-15-2006 2:54 AM


Re: Topic = Freewill
Foreknowledge is only possible if the future is fixed
not to be a smartass, but why?
since one of the concepts in question here is god, supposing the existance of god, and that god is indeed omniscient, why couldn't his fore-knowledge include all possible outcomes. basically, what if god is an infinite quantum computer?


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Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by PaulK, posted 06-15-2006 3:26 AM arachnophilia has replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 68 of 309 (321731)
06-15-2006 3:26 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by arachnophilia
06-15-2006 3:18 AM


Re: Topic = Freewill
If there are multiple possible outcomes and God knows all of them then God can't meaningfully predict the future other than to say "one of these several things will happen...". And if God actually sends a prophecy that one of those things will happen it will often turn out to be wrong (if you hold to the idea of multiple timelines it will inevitably be wrong in some of them)
So really that isn't what we would think of as the full foreknowledge attributed to God in the Bible.

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 Message 67 by arachnophilia, posted 06-15-2006 3:18 AM arachnophilia has replied

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 69 of 309 (321733)
06-15-2006 3:42 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by PaulK
06-15-2006 3:26 AM


Re: Topic = Freewill
If there are multiple possible outcomes and God knows all of them then God can't meaningfully predict the future other than to say "one of these several things will happen..."
or rather, all of them. maybe the trick is destroying the universes that don't go your way?


This message is a reply to:
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iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 70 of 309 (321745)
06-15-2006 5:31 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Heathen
06-14-2006 9:55 PM


Re: Where should this go?
I'm afraid the evangelist/argumentitive git in me would make that very difficult. I've tried that before and failed. No reason to suppose otherwise here. I have after all, predicted that this thread would become what it has become. Er...busy.

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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3643 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 71 of 309 (321755)
06-15-2006 7:38 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by jar
06-14-2006 9:07 PM


Re: Speaking as a Christian and xian.
Hi Jar!
Your salvation will depend on how you live your life.
I've been wanting to bring up a topic related to this for ages. I thought in your mind everyone was saved? Can you lose this salvation? OK, I'm going to spin this off to a new thread... will you join me?

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fallacycop
Member (Idle past 5520 days)
Posts: 692
From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil
Joined: 02-18-2006


Message 72 of 309 (321788)
06-15-2006 9:33 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by mjfloresta
06-15-2006 1:23 AM


Re: Topic = Freewill
mjfloresta writes:
Think about it this way: It's as if the event is the cause and the foreknowledge is the effect....except the foreknowledge temporally comes first...but not causally...
By definition the timeline is an ordered sequence of events with cause coming before and effect coming after (That IS the definition of before and after)
Off course, for the definition above to make any sense, there must be an orderable colection of events, precluding the possibility of something coming both before and after something else.
Your idea of foreknowlege is intended to be an exception to the rule above. It comes after the event (otherwise it's not an effect as you stated), and it also comes before the event (otherwise it's not foreknowlege as stated).
But in what meaningfull way does it come before the event unless it is also a cause for that event? (Otherwise to lable it as foreknowlege would just be a play with words). But if it is a cause to that event it will influence it and mess up the idea of free will.
The only possible conclusion is that the idea of an all knowing god being compatible with the idea of free will is just a meaningless wordplay by people that want to have their cake and eat it.

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 Message 53 by mjfloresta, posted 06-15-2006 1:23 AM mjfloresta has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by cavediver, posted 06-15-2006 9:49 AM fallacycop has replied

cavediver
Member (Idle past 3643 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 73 of 309 (321798)
06-15-2006 9:49 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by fallacycop
06-15-2006 9:33 AM


Re: Topic = Freewill
The only possible conclusion is that the idea of an all knowing god being compatible with the idea of free will is just a meaningless wordplay by people that want to have their cake and eat it.
So you would also conclude that a universe that allows closed-timelike-curves (backwards time-travel) also removes the possibility of free-will, as it would obviously introduce foreknowledge?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by fallacycop, posted 06-15-2006 9:33 AM fallacycop has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by fallacycop, posted 06-15-2006 9:21 PM cavediver has not replied

Heathen
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 74 of 309 (321809)
06-15-2006 10:36 AM


I would also like to have the other point discussed..
creavolution writes:
3) Without the ability to even discern what information is correct (due to our 'fallen state'), free will is irrelevant, pointless, wasted. and point 2 doesn't even come into play.
So.. if (for arguments sake) we assume that mj is correct, and
- we have free will (despite foreknowledge)
- We consider making a decision without information to be free will
What about our ability to make a decision? according to the bible, we are 'fallen' we cannot be trusted to make decisions because our fallen state prevents us from understanding the evidence or information.
what good is free will if we are unable to use it wisely?
Edited by Creavolution, : removed reference to iano

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by iano, posted 06-15-2006 10:51 AM Heathen has replied

ikabod
Member (Idle past 4492 days)
Posts: 365
From: UK
Joined: 03-13-2006


Message 75 of 309 (321813)
06-15-2006 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Heathen
06-14-2006 4:56 PM


1) Free will is an Illusion, since God knows what will happen, what choices we will make.
****** if god is all powerful can he not change the rules that we live with in a "bubble" of free will , that at the same time he knows all but we have free will... he made the universe so he can set the rules ,given he is outside time every thing may be a massive now with out past or future from god view point.. all events are similtanious.*******
2) Without the relevant information to make an informed choice our 'Free will' is not free at all.
******only if you wish to analyis your choice and you assume that there is a right or wrong one ... if you had all the info , would you pick a bad choice just to exersize your free will ?...*******
3) Without the ability to even discern what information is correct (due to our 'fallen state'), free will is irrelevant, pointless, wasted. and point 2 doesn't even come into play.
**** as point 2 , if you have free will you can make a uninformed choice ... you nwant to be able to pick your choice based on so scale ... but what scale do you want .. and even nthen .. with free will you can still pick any choice ******
you can not claim that if god give you the instructions on how to be save .. you have no free will and also claim lack of infomation on how to be save means no free will ...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Heathen, posted 06-14-2006 4:56 PM Heathen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by Heathen, posted 06-15-2006 11:11 AM ikabod has replied

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