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Author | Topic: Free will: an illusion | |||||||||||||||||||||||
iano Member (Idle past 1969 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
We consider making a decision without information to be free will This is not my position Crevo. By all means carry on with the assumption, but please remove the reference to it being my position if you intend to do so. Its probably better to remove reference to my position altogether seeing as I am not partaking in the thread.
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Heathen Member (Idle past 1311 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: |
Ikabod writes:
so.. 'with god all things are possible'? if thats the best you can do, there really is no point. IF every time an obstacle appears you magic it away by gods super powers.. there really is no point in discussion. if god is all powerful can he not change the rules that we live with in a "bubble" of free will , that at the same time he knows all but we have free will... he made the universe so he can set the rules ,given he is outside time every thing may be a massive now with out past or future from god view point.. all events are similtanious.If God is outside time, past present future is simulanteous, like reader holding a book (to use Ianos favourite analogy) time as he looks at it is everchanging, as a consequence of our decisions. but yet, god knows (as he is all knowing) what every change will be, when and where it will happen... the same argument stands.. it is all foreknown, I have the choice of A or B, God knows I will choose A, it is inevitable. the choice is an illusion. because the only outcome will be A, there is no option for B. god knows this. otherwise God is wrong. Ikabod writes:
According to Xian teaching there most definitely is a right and a wrong one. I concede that we do not need all the information to make a choice. However.. Is is fair or just for God to ask us to choose or not choose based upon little more than hearsay? he "wants that all should be saved".. great.. I'm sure that most people would want to be saved, I am also sure that some people would not choose that path even if god appeared nightly on his own chat show. But as it stands, God chose to communicate with us through a 2000 year old text which is merely a rough translation, an interpretation of what was written. It tells me things like If I wear cloth made from different yarns it is an abomination, if I eat shellfish it is an abomination, etc. what exactly is there to imply that this book is little more than a collection of folk tales and the equivalent of public information broadcasts...
only if you wish to analyis your choice and you assume that there is a right or wrong one ... if you had all the info , would you pick a bad choice just to exersize your free will ?... Ikabod writes:
Look.. according to the fundamentalists here (who this thread is aimed at) we cannot even determine geology correctly, genetics is something we misunderstand because we are fallen, In fact our own understanding of morality (tolerance of homosexuality, sexual equality) goes against the bible and is a result of our inability to see what is right. IF this is in fact correct, what makes you so sure you can choose, in an informed, intelligent way, whether or not to follow god... what makes you so sure you can even recognise God? as point 2 , if you have free will you can make a uninformed choice ... you nwant to be able to pick your choice based on so scale ... but what scale do you want .. and even nthen .. with free will you can still pick any choice Edited by Creavolution, : fixed quotes
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Heathen Member (Idle past 1311 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: |
apologies.. done
of course you could alway join in and explain your position on these three points? come on... you know you want to...
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Creavolution writes: so destiny is set in stone? Perhaps...but if so, why even make any decisions at all?
1) Free will is an Illusion, since God knows what will happen, what choices we will make. 2) Without the relevant information to make an informed choice our 'Free will' is not free at all. Good point. We make do with the information that we have, as well as our intuitions.
3) Without the ability to even discern what information is correct (due to our 'fallen state'), free will is irrelevant, pointless, wasted. and point 2 doesn't even come into play. Assuming that we are fallen, the Bible supports the view that no one seeks God. I believe that God finds us...we never find Him. “There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, "All right, then, have it your way” --C.S.Lewis
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iano Member (Idle past 1969 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
apologies.. done No apologies necessary. Thanks
.. and explain your position on these three points? Come on... you know you want to... Its less a question of wanting to and more a question of not being able to. You said:
1) Free will is an illusion, since God knows what will happen, what choices we will make. Patently if free will is an illusion then the idea that there are choices to be made is an illusion too. God would know what will happen alright and what we are going to do - not choose to do. If not 'choose to do' then you had to write what you had to write and I am writing what I have to write. It seems to me that would be no 'me', no 'position', nothing to 'explain' - just instinctual (read programmed) machines doing what programmed machines do. Programmed machines cannot explain anything. They are unable Not that it seems to be holding anyone back here.
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Heathen Member (Idle past 1311 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: |
phat writes:
precisely... this is the problem with an all knowing god supposedly giving us free will... either so destiny is set in stone? Perhaps...but if so, why even make any decisions at all?a)there is no all knowing god, or b)We do not really have free will. phat writes:
The idea I have heard mooted by certain Xians who wish to remain un referred to, is that, God reaches out to us, we make the 'decision' whether or not to take him up on his offer. But god knows what decision we will make, so in Effect he creates us (or some of us)knowing that we will not choose him. or choose to accept his advances. i.e. doomed to eternal hell.. Assuming that we are fallen, the Bible supports the view that no one seeks God. I believe that God finds us...we never find Him.Nice.
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Heathen Member (Idle past 1311 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: |
iano writes:
If (what i believe) your idea of god to be exists... then yes.. exactly. We are nothing more that programmed machines playing out what he knows will happen. He created us with fallen judgement. so even if our choices actually represent free will.. they are hopeless as we cannot judge whether or not we make the right decision. It seems to me that would be no 'me', no 'position', nothing to 'explain' - just instinctual (read programmed) machines doing what programmed machines do. Programmed machines cannot explain anything. They are unable You are saved? How do you know this.. by your own definition of the fallen state of mankind, your judgement will not allow you to discern this.
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iano Member (Idle past 1969 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
we make the 'decision' whether or not to take him up on his offer. I'm afraid your off-target again Crevo. This is not my positon either.
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iano Member (Idle past 1969 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
Your leaping ahead Crevo. If a machine then you cannot have an "opinion" or a "thought" or "explain" or any of the other things "you" are taking for granted here. You just said what the programme spat out. It has no worth as such. Gobbeldymook
Only if free will isn't an illusion can you even begin to talk about the boundaries in which that free will might operate.
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rgb Inactive Member |
Myself writes
quote: Again, does free will include eternal damnation for those that chose not to believe? One "real" christian has already answered. I'm sure there are more than one here. Any other taker?
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Heathen Member (Idle past 1311 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: |
From your recent discussion with PY:
iano writes:
The only way out is to desert and join the other sideiano writes:
If you are lost however it is that you have rejected his gospel. iano writes:
Consider yourself sliding down a slope to Perdition - for that is what you are on. God reaches out to arrest your fall but your struggle free. He grasps a hold of your hand but you bite it and force him to release his grip. In releasing he is respecting your choice at that point. Occasion after occasion he tries to grasp you. You have free will: you can struggle free of his attempt to save you or you can do nothing...God saves man / man damns himself iano writes: ...that would interfere with your free will to reject. So we do "choose" to reject...if we don't choose to reject our choice is to accept... Edited by Creavolution, : 'or' to 'our' in last line
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Heathen Member (Idle past 1311 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: |
iano writes:
Which is exactly why your worldview makes no sense to me.. Your leaping ahead Crevo. If a machine then you cannot have an "opinion" or a "thought" or "explain" or any of the other things "you" are taking for granted here. You just said what the programme spat out. It has no worth as such. Gobbeldymook In the absence of an all knowing-creator god however.. we do have true free will.
iano writes:
And your world(God)view suggests.. even requires that free will is an illusion. so either free will is an illusion or you world(God)view is incorrect. Only if free will isn't an illusion can you even begin to talk about the boundaries in which that free will might operate.
I believe the latter.
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sidelined Member (Idle past 5936 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: |
Creaevolution
In the absence of an all knowing-creator god however.. we do have true free will. Have you heard of Benjamin Libet?
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iano Member (Idle past 1969 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
So we do "choose" to reject...if we don't choose to reject our choice is to accept... I don't hold so. Of course again, you may conclude that that must be the case - but without referring to it as being my positon. For it is not.
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Heathen Member (Idle past 1311 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: |
nope
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