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Author Topic:   Let us reason together.
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 31 of 152 (31621)
02-07-2003 12:30 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by nator
02-02-2003 9:28 AM


OOPS! Sorry, looks like that website just recently moved; I found it again:
mbdojo.com - mbdojo Resources and Information.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by nator, posted 02-02-2003 9:28 AM nator has not replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 32 of 152 (31644)
02-07-2003 3:15 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by drummachine
02-06-2003 9:17 PM


I notice that firstly instead of reasoning you wish to cut-and-paste material from other sources whcih you want us to accept without discussion.
I notice further that the particular message I am replying to misrepresents Darwin.
I can only conclude that the title of the thread is a falsehood, and that you nevwer had any intnetion of reasoning.
I strongly suggest that you reconsider your position since you are acting in a highly disrespectful, arrogant and less than honest fashion. Is that good Christian behaviour ?

This message is a reply to:
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drummachine
Inactive Member


Message 33 of 152 (31741)
02-08-2003 2:00 PM


Well friend what cut and paste is what I believe. I looked at the site. I believe there are mutations in the genes. In the beginning were 2 dogs for example. They had offspring and some of the parents genes were not passed to the pup. It has always been only man, only dog, etc. I believe because of sin. So, everything evolved by chance? We look at the heavens or the earth or even a little ant. By chance? No designer? Would you be willing to read what I posted?

Replies to this message:
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shilohproject
Inactive Member


Message 34 of 152 (31743)
02-08-2003 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by drummachine
02-06-2003 9:17 PM


Hello drummachine,
A person can accept the tenets of evolutionary development and not reject God. Darwinism does not in any way attempt to explain away God; it simply tries to explain what is obsevable in the world around us.
It may tend to refute one particular idea about what God is, but that is hardly the same thing as rejecting God, even if it asks you to reject what you think about what God is.
-Shiloh

This message is a reply to:
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drummachine
Inactive Member


Message 35 of 152 (31764)
02-08-2003 10:05 PM


I believe you can be a Christian and believe in evolution, but I think that it is not consistent.

Replies to this message:
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 Message 39 by Karl, posted 02-10-2003 5:01 AM drummachine has not replied

Andya Primanda
Inactive Member


Message 36 of 152 (31766)
02-08-2003 10:18 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by drummachine
02-08-2003 10:05 PM


Then correct me if I'm wrong, but is Christianity the only religion that's having a problem with evolution? Sure there are Muslim creationists, but they imported their material from Christian fundamnetalists. As I know it, only Christians have a problem with evolution...
...wait, what about the Raelians?

This message is a reply to:
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drummachine
Inactive Member


Message 37 of 152 (31767)
02-09-2003 1:03 AM


I do deeply care for all people and all religions, but I believe there is only one truth and salvation is only through the blood of Christ. The most important thing is the truth. There are many religions of the world, but there can only be one truth.

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by John, posted 02-09-2003 10:06 AM drummachine has not replied

John
Inactive Member


Message 38 of 152 (31780)
02-09-2003 10:06 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by drummachine
02-09-2003 1:03 AM


quote:
There are many religions of the world, but there can only be one truth.
Then you ought to be able to tell me how to pick one of the many.
------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

This message is a reply to:
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Karl
Inactive Member


Message 39 of 152 (31845)
02-10-2003 5:01 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by drummachine
02-08-2003 10:05 PM


quote:
I believe you can be a Christian and believe in evolution, but I think that it is not consistent.
Why?
Christian belief is defined by the Nicaean and Apostles' creeds. Show me where either of those says that evolution did not occur.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by drummachine, posted 02-08-2003 10:05 PM drummachine has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 40 of 152 (31854)
02-10-2003 9:11 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by drummachine
02-08-2003 2:00 PM


quote:
I looked at the site. I believe there are mutations in the genes. In the beginning were 2 dogs for example. They had offspring and some of the parents genes were not passed to the pup. It has always been only man, only dog, etc. I believe because of sin. So, everything evolved by chance? We look at the heavens or the earth or even a little ant. By chance? No designer?
I am sorry, but I can't actually tell from this post if you actually went to the site or not.
...or, if you did go to the site, if you understand what it expalins.
What would be helpful is if you were to post a brief summary of the information posted on the "evolution for beginners" site so we can be sure you understand.
Again, I am not asking you to accept Biology, just to understand the argument.
[This message has been edited by schrafinator, 02-10-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by drummachine, posted 02-08-2003 2:00 PM drummachine has not replied

drummachine
Inactive Member


Message 41 of 152 (32196)
02-14-2003 1:41 AM


For more information, visit Q&A: Creation Compromises
10 Dangers of theistic evolution
Werner Gitt
First published in:
Creation Ex Nihilo 17(4):49—51,
September—November 1995
The atheistic formula for evolution is:
Evolution = matter + evolutionary factors (chance and necessity + mutation + selection + isolation + death) + very long time periods.
In the theistic evolutionary view, God is added:
Theistic evolution = matter + evolutionary factors (chance and necessity + mutation + selection + isolation + death) + very long time periods + God.
In this system God is not the omnipotent Lord of all things, whose Word has to be taken seriously by all men, but He is integrated into the evolutionary philosophy. This leads to 10 dangers for Christians.1
Danger No. 1 — Misrepresentation of the Nature of God
The Bible reveals God to us as our Father in Heaven, who is absolutely perfect (Matthew 5:48), holy (Isaiah 6:3), and omnipotent (Jeremiah 32:17). The Apostle John tells us that 'God is love', 'light', and 'life' (1 John 4:16; 1:5; 1:1-2). When this God creates something, His work is described as 'very good' (Genesis 1:31) and 'perfect' (Deuteronomy 32:4).
Theistic evolution gives a false representation of the nature of God because death and ghastliness are ascribed to the Creator as principles of creation. (Progressive creationism, likewise, allows for millions of years of death and horror before sin.)
Danger No. 2 — God becomes a God of the Gaps
The Bible states that God is the Prime Cause of all things. 'But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things ... and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by Him' (1 Corinthians 8:6).
However, in theistic evolution the only workspace allotted to God is that part of nature which evolution cannot 'explain' with the means presently at its disposal. In this way He is reduced to being a 'god of the gaps' for those phenomena about which there are doubts. This leads to the view that 'God is therefore not absolute, but He Himself has evolved - He is evolution'.2
Danger No. 3 — Denial of Central Biblical Teachings
The entire Bible bears witness that we are dealing with a source of truth authored by God (2 Timothy 3:16), with the Old Testament as the indispensable 'ramp' leading to the New Testament, like an access road leads to a motor free way (John 5:39). The biblical creation account should not be regarded as a myth, a parable, or an allegory, but as a historical report, because:
Biological, astronomical and anthropological facts are given in didactic [teaching] form.
In the Ten Commandments God bases the six working days and one day of rest on the same time-span as that described in the creation account (Exodus 20:8-11).
In the New Testament Jesus referred to facts of the creation (e.g. Matthew 19:4-5).
Nowhere in the Bible are there any indications that the creation account should be understood in any other way than as a factual report.
The doctrine of theistic evolution undermines this basic way of reading the Bible, as vouched for by Jesus, the prophets and the Apostles. Events reported in the Bible are reduced to mythical imagery, and an understanding of the message of the Bible as being true in word and meaning is lost.
Danger No. 4 — Loss of the Way for Finding God
The Bible describes man as being completely ensnared by sin after Adam's fall (Romans 7:18-19). Only those persons who realize that they are sinful and lost will seek the Saviour who 'came to save that which was lost' (Luke 19:10).
However, evolution knows no sin in the biblical sense of missing one's purpose (in relation to God). Sin is made meaningless, and that is exactly the opposite of what the Holy Spirit does - He declares sin to be sinful. If sin is seen as a harmless evolutionary factor, then one has lost the key for finding God, which is not resolved by adding 'God' to the evolutionary scenario.
Danger No. 5 — The Doctrine of God's Incarnation is Undermined
The incarnation of God through His Son Jesus Christ is one of the basic teachings of the Bible. The Bible states that 'The Word was made flesh and dwelt among us' (John 1:14), 'Christ Jesus ... was made in the likeness of men' (Philippians 2:5-7).
The idea of evolution undermines this foundation of our salvation. Evolutionist Hoimar von Ditfurth discusses the incompatibility of Jesus' incarnation and evolutionary thought: 'Consideration of evolution inevitably forces us to a critical review ... of Christian formulations. This clearly holds for the central Christian concept of the 'incarnation' of God ... '.3
Danger No. 6 — The Biblical Basis of Jesus' Work of Redemption Is Mythologized
The Bible teaches that the first man's fall into sin was a real event and that this was the direct cause of sin in the world. 'Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned' (Romans 5:12).
Theistic evolution does not acknowledge Adam as the first man, nor that he was created directly from 'the dust of the ground' by God (Genesis 2:17). Most theistic evolutionists regard the creation account as being merely a mythical tale, albeit with some spiritual significance. However, the sinner Adam and the Saviour Jesus are linked together in the Bible - Romans 5:16-18. Thus any the logical view which mythologizes Adam undermines the biblical basis of Jesus' work of redemption.
Danger No. 7 — Loss of Biblical Chronology
The Bible provides us with a time-scale for history and this underlies a proper understanding of the Bible. This time-scale includes:
The time-scale cannot be extended indefinitely into the past, nor into the future. There is a well-defined beginning in Genesis 1:1, as well as a moment when physical time will end (Matthew 24:14).
The total duration of creation was six days (Exodus 20:11).
The age of the universe may be estimated in terms of the genealogies recorded in the Bible (but note that it can not be calculated exactly). It is of the order of several thousand years, not billions.
Galatians 4:4 points out the most outstanding event in the world's history: 'But when the fullness of the time was come, God sent forth His Son.' This happened nearly 2,000 years ago.
The return of Christ in power and glory is the greatest expected future event.
Supporters of theistic evolution (and progressive creation) disregard the biblically given measures of time in favour of evolutionist time-scales involving billions of years both past and future (for which there are no convincing physical grounds). This can lead to two errors:
Not all statements of the Bible are to be taken seriously.
Vigilance concerning the second coming of Jesus may be lost.
Danger No. 8 — Loss of Creation Concepts
Certain essential creation concepts are taught in the Bible. These include:
God created matter without using any available material.
God created the earth first, and on the fourth day He added the moon, the solar system, our local galaxy, and all other star systems. This sequence conflicts with all ideas of 'cosmic evolution', such as the 'big bang' cosmology.
Theistic evolution ignores all such biblical creation principles and replaces them with evolutionary notions, there by contradicting and opposing God's omnipotent acts of creation.
Danger No. 9 — Misrepresentation of Reality
The Bible carries the seal of truth, and all its pronouncements are authoritative - whether they deal with questions of faith and salvation, daily living, or matters of scientific importance.
Evolutionists brush all this aside, e.g. Richard Dawkins says,
'Nearly all peoples have developed their own creation myth, and the Genesis story is just the one that happened to have been adopted by one particular tribe of Middle Eastern herders. It has no more special status than the belief of a particular West African tribe that the world was created from the excrement of ants'.4
If evolution is false, then numerous sciences have embraced false testimony. Whenever these sciences conform with evolutionary views, they misrepresent reality. How much more then a theology which departs from what the Bible says and embraces evolution!
Danger No. 10 — Missing the Purpose
In no other historical book do we find so many and such valuable statements of purpose for man, as in the Bible. For example:
Man is God's purpose in creation (Genesis 1:27-28).
Man is the purpose of God's plan of redemption (Isaiah 53:5).
Man is the purpose of the mission of God's Son (1 John 4:9).
We are the purpose of God's inheritance (Titus 3:7).
Heaven is our destination (1 Peter 1:4).
However, the very thought of purposefulness is anathema to evolutionists. 'Evolutionary adaptations never follow a purposeful program, they thus can not be regarded as teleonomical.'5 Thus a belief system such as theistic evolution that marries purposefulness with non-purposefulness is a contradiction in terms.
Conclusion
The doctrines of creation and evolution are so strongly divergent that reconciliation is totally impossible. The theistic evolutionists attempt to integrate the two doctrines, however such syncretism reduces the message of the Bible to insignificance. The conclusion is inevitable: There is no support for theistic evolution in the Bible.
References
This article has been adapted from chapter 8 'The Consequences of Theistic Evolution', from Prof. Dr. Werner Gitt's book, Did God use Evolution?, Christliche Literatur-Verbreitung e.V., Postfach 11 01 35 . 33661, Bielefeld, Germany.
E. Jantsch, Die Selbstorganisation des Universums, Munchen, 1979, p. 412.
Hoimar von Ditfurth, Wir sind nicht nur von dieser Welt, Munchen, 1984, pp. 21-22.
Richard Dawkins, The Blind Watchmaker, Penguin Books, London, 1986, p. 316.
H. Penzlin, Das Teleologie-Problem in der Biologie, Biologische Rundschau, 25 (1987), S.7-26, p. 19.
What does Theistic Evolution involve?
The following evolutionary assumptions are generally applicable to theistic evolution:
The basic principle, evolution, is taken for granted.
It is believed that evolution is a universal principle.
As far as scientific laws are concerned, there is no difference between the origin of the earth and all life and their subsequent development (the principle of uniformity).
Evolution relies on processes that allow increases in organization from the simple to the complex, from non-life to life, and from lower to higher forms of life.
The driving forces of evolution are mutation, selection, isolation, and mixing. Chance and necessity, long time epochs, ecological changes, and death are additional indispensable factors.
The time line is so prolonged that anyone can have as much time as he/she likes for the process of evolution.
The present is the key to the past.
There was a smooth transition from non-life to life.
Evolution will persist into the distant future.
In addition to these evolutionary assumptions, three additional beliefs apply to theistic evolution:
God used evolution as a means of creating.
The Bible contains no usable or relevant ideas which can be applied in present-day origins science.
Evolutionistic pronouncements have priority over biblical statements. The Bible must be reinterpreted when and wherever it contradicts the present evolutionary world view.
* This section is adapted from Werner Gitt's, Did God Use Evolution?, pp. 13-16, 24.
CHRISTIANANSWERS.NET
It is certainly understandable that even a very earnest and sincere seeker after truth would be confused over the religious situation today, with hundreds of denominations, sects, and cults in Christendom alone, as well as hundreds more in other countries and cultures, and with new religious movements arising almost every day. Nevertheless, God has provided adequate instruction for us to enable us to "know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error" (I John 4:6) if we really want to do so.
There are three criteria which are especially helpful in evaluating a particular cult or movement: the teachings of its leaders concerning the Bible, concerning Christ, and concerning the way of salvation, respectively.
1. Attitude toward the Bible
The Bible claims, many hundreds of time, to be the written Word of God. The Old Testament Scriptures were accepted by Christ and the apostles as divinely inspired and completely infallible. Jesus said: "The scriptures cannot be broken" (John 10:35). With respect to the New Testament, He promised His apostles that "the Holy Ghost shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you" (John 14:26), and that "the Spirit of truth will guide you into all truth" (John 16:13).
Therefore, during the first century, the apostles who had been with Christ, had witnessed His resurrection and had received these promises, gradually wrote down the Gospels and Epistles which now comprise the New Testament. These were readily received and recognized by the early Christians as inspired Scriptures. The apostles claimed that these writings were divinely inspired and authoritative, and true Christians have always accepted them as such.
Finally, the last of the apostles, John the Beloved, near the end of the first century, was enabled to look prophetically into the future ages and to write down the last of the true Scriptures, the book of Revelation. This completed God's written words, "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life" (Revelation 22:18, 19).
These last words of Christ's apostles give us a most important rule. The Scriptures are fully inspired, even to the very words, and those who would add to them or take away from them are, to the extent they do so, false teachers.
In general, cultists have been guilty of "adding to" the Scriptures, claiming either that the writings of their own founders were divinely inspired or that the interpretations of their leaders were uniquely necessary and authoritative. Modernists and liberals, on the other hand, have been guilty of the even more serious error of "taking away from" Scripture, culling out or allegorizing those portions which they decide are unscientific or unreasonable to modern man. The true teacher, however, will accept all the Scriptures, and only the Scriptures, as the infallible Word of God.
2. Attitude toward Christ
A true Christian teacher will gladly accept and proclaim Jesus Christ as He is, true God and true man. "Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is the antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son" (I John 2:22). "For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist" (II John 7). "There shall be false teachers among you, who privately shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought (that is, 'redeemed') them: (II Peter 2:1).
Error concerning the person of Christ can take either the form of the ancient Gnostic heresy, which denied His true humanity, or that of the modern Agnostic heresy, which denies His true deity. The latter considers Him to be a great man and great religious teacher and leader, but rejects His virgin birth, His sinless life, His substitutionary atonement, and His bodily resurrection and ascension. Any cult or denomination or religious movement which does not clearly and forcefully proclaim the Lord Jesus Christ both as the perfect Son of man and the only begotten Son of God, "the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty' (Revelation 1:8) is false, and should be rejected.
3. Attitude toward Salvation
The gospel of Christ is "the power of God unto salvation, to everyone that believeth" (Romans 1:16). The word "gospel" means "good news," not "good advice." It does not tell us what we must do and not do in order to earn salvation, but rather what Christ has done to provide salvation as a free gift. "For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God; Not of works, lest any man should boast" (Ephesians 2:8,9).
Every other religion under the sun, whether pseudo-Christian or non-Christian, panders to man's pride by teaching him there is something he can do to earn, or to help in earning, his own salvation. Only true Biblical Christianity recognizes man as he really is, utterly lost in sin, destined for eternal separation from God. The gospel, "by which you are saved," is the glorious new that "Christ died for our sin" (I Corinthians 15:1,3), and that we can be saved by grace, through personal faith in Christ, plus nothing else whatever! Any religion which teaches otherwise is, to that extent, false. Paul said, "If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that you have received, let him be accursed" (Galatians 1:9). One who is truly saved by God's grace in Christ will, of course, then seek to follow Christ and His Word in all things, not to earn salvation, but in love and gratitude for His glorious gift of cleansing and everlasting life.

drummachine
Inactive Member


Message 42 of 152 (32198)
02-14-2003 1:44 AM


Schrafinator,
Would you please be willing to read what I posted and answer on that?

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Karl, posted 02-14-2003 3:13 AM drummachine has not replied
 Message 44 by nator, posted 02-14-2003 2:58 PM drummachine has not replied
 Message 45 by nator, posted 02-14-2003 2:58 PM drummachine has not replied

Karl
Inactive Member


Message 43 of 152 (32206)
02-14-2003 3:13 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by drummachine
02-14-2003 1:44 AM


Peddling Gitt's little diatribe drummachine?
Interestingly enough, I wrote a long rebuttal of this some time ago. It can be found here: No webpage found at provided URL: http://freespace.virgin.net/karl_and.gnome/10dangers.htm

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by drummachine, posted 02-14-2003 1:44 AM drummachine has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 44 of 152 (32272)
02-14-2003 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by drummachine
02-14-2003 1:44 AM


Nope, not yet.
Your history with my posts is not very good, drum.
You asked for a basic explanation of evolution, and I provided one.
You did not reply to comment upon that explanation. I specifically asked you to reply and to discuss the information on the website, and you kind of muttered something about having been to the site and about mutation.
So far, I have no reason at all to believe that you have any understanding of biological evolution whatsoever. Please realize that I realize that you may understand it perfectly. So far, you haven't indicated anything close to this.
Surely you understand how important it is to have a good grasp of any concept before you can make any good decisions about if, right?
Before I put a lot of time and effort into a reply to your latest massive (and annoying) cut n paste, I want to be assured that my reply won't be ignored like you have ignored my other replies.
I also have little interest in discussing anything with someone whom I suspect is quite ignorant on a subject yet feels perfectly fine rejecting that subject in his arrogance.
So, prove me wrong and please post a summary of that website I provided for you so we can have a discussion of science.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by drummachine, posted 02-14-2003 1:44 AM drummachine has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 45 of 152 (32273)
02-14-2003 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by drummachine
02-14-2003 1:44 AM


deleted double post.
[This message has been edited by schrafinator, 02-14-2003]

This message is a reply to:
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