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Author Topic:   How do creationists explain stars?
Rob 
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Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 103 of 297 (322091)
06-16-2006 1:12 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by fallacycop
06-15-2006 9:43 AM


Re: what debate?
So you take the fact that somebody appears to desagree with you as evidence that you may be right???
Nope!
Just that one of us is wrong, because the truth is absolute!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by fallacycop, posted 06-15-2006 9:43 AM fallacycop has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by Percy, posted 06-16-2006 8:08 AM Rob has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5875 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 107 of 297 (322176)
06-16-2006 10:15 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by ReverendDG
06-16-2006 2:46 AM


Re: RE Age of Stars
he thought the doctors were giving drugs to him to kill him, now of course they were not, he thought it was, what i am getting at is reality is not static or absulute it varies from person to person
but the universe does not
Do you hear yourself? He thought they were, but they were not???
The absolute reality is that they were not!
What he believes is irrelevant.... The only thing that will help him know who he is or where he is, is the truth. And the truth is reality!

This message is a reply to:
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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5875 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 108 of 297 (322186)
06-16-2006 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by Percy
06-16-2006 8:08 AM


Re: what debate?

This is NOT on topic here! Please do not respond.

Even before Darwin geologists had already established that the world was far older than the account in Genesis implies.
Polystratic fossils...
Edited by AdminNosy, : Topic Warning!

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 Message 110 by Percy, posted 06-16-2006 11:02 AM Rob has replied

Rob 
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Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 113 of 297 (325566)
06-24-2006 2:20 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by Percy
06-16-2006 11:02 AM


Re: what debate?
So if you want to argue that your views on stars have scientific validity, you'll have to point to scientific, not religious, evidence.
On a tip from a friend, I had to check into a theory that at first seemed exciting yet I hate to get too excitied seeing what you have done to such haste in the past.
after reading several sources, I found that what at first was hastily compiled by at least one creationist, turns out to be far more credible and troublesome to science than those criticisms warranted.
What do you think of Paul Davies, from the Australian centre for Astrobiology?
he and some collegues have some interesting things to say about the speed of light slowing down...
If the Speed of light is decaying as some say, then the appearant age of the universe is way off. WAY Off!
There's your answer, in the scientific frame...
The Speed of light is not absolute!
I didn't think it wise to post the whole article here, though it is a short one. but here is the link and then a quote from Paul Davies form another source: Einstein's relativity theory hits a speed bump
Question:
Does the monotheistic tradition of an intelligible universe have any impact on modern science?
answer from Paul Davies, theoretical physicist / Australian Centre for Astrobiology:
”The worldview of a scientist, even the most atheistic scientist, is that essentially of Monotheism. It is a belief, which is accepted as an article of faith, that the universe is ordered in an intelligible way.
Now, you couldn’t be a scientist if you didn’t believe these two things. If you didn’t think there was an underlying order in nature, you wouldn’t bother to do it, because there is nothing to be found. And if you didn’t believe it was intelligible, you’d give up because there is no point if human beings can’t come to understand it.
But scientists do, as a matter of faith, accept that the universe is ordered and at least partially intelligible to human beings. And that is what underpins the entire scientific enterprise. And that is a theological position. It is absolutely ”theo’ when you look at history. It comes from a theological worldview.
That doesn’t mean you have to buy into the religion, or buy into the theology, but it is very, very significant in historical terms; that that is where it comes from and that scientists today, unshakably retain that worldview, as an act of faith. You cannot prove it logically has to be the case, that the universe is rational and intelligible. It could easily have been otherwise. It could have been arbitrary, it could have been absurd, it could have been utterly beyond human comprehension. It’s not! And scientists just take this for granted for the most part, and I think it’s a really important point that needs to be made.’

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Replies to this message:
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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5875 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 114 of 297 (325569)
06-24-2006 2:46 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by NosyNed
02-22-2006 12:47 PM


Re: Parallax
This answer to the question of how a Biblical worldview can support the evidence of stars, is more valuable to me than you can conceivably know... my knowsy friend.
And although I try very hard to remember that my battle is not with flesh, but with Spirit, I could not contain the glee with which I present an answer to this threads question. And it is not mine, but the answer of well respected theoretical Physicists.
So in case your already familliar with the idea, and thought it to be the hoax of some nut creationist, think again...
The speed of light is slowing down...
Einstein's relativity theory hits a speed bump

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 Message 13 by NosyNed, posted 02-22-2006 12:47 PM NosyNed has replied

Replies to this message:
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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5875 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 115 of 297 (325571)
06-24-2006 2:48 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by ReverendDG
06-14-2006 11:50 AM


Re: RE Age of Stars
See message 113 &114

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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5875 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 116 of 297 (325572)
06-24-2006 2:51 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by jar
06-13-2006 11:56 AM


Re: Truth is relative?
Well, some conclusions are supported by evidence
You are right, I apologize!
Now scroll up to message 113...

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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5875 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 117 of 297 (325573)
06-24-2006 3:00 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by sidelined
03-06-2006 12:47 PM


Re: Distance to stars and the speed of light.
They are subject to change as new evidence surfaces but they are not constructs we are free to arbitrarily build.
Remember that tidbit, because on that, we will always agree!
We do not create reality... it created us!

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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5875 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 119 of 297 (325575)
06-24-2006 3:09 AM
Reply to: Message 118 by NosyNed
06-24-2006 3:05 AM


Re: Light slowing down
What's wrong with you? Don't read the quote form message 113. It is from another source, but simply the same physicist as the article link.. click the link, and read the article!
Here is a quote form that article:
If the speed of light was close to infinity, immediately after the Big Bang, as Davies believes it may have been, our theories about the way energy cooled to form matter, giving rise to stars, planets and people, could be completely wrong.
Still, correcting Einstein is no small feat and is likely to attract controversy, perhaps even animosity from scientific colleagues.
"When I first heard about these observations . . . I was, frankly, not only sceptical about it, I was appalled," Davies says. "I thought it was horrible. The last thing we wanted in theoretical physics was to have something like this."
What article did you read?
Edited by Rob, : No reason given.
Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

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Replies to this message:
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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5875 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 124 of 297 (325584)
06-24-2006 5:01 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by cavediver
06-24-2006 4:22 AM


Re: what debate?
Sort of interesting. Probably not correct
Sounds to me like an answer to the question of this thread. Not a no brainer for any parties involved...

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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5875 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 127 of 297 (325648)
06-24-2006 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 126 by cavediver
06-24-2006 5:17 AM


Re: what debate?
Sorry for being dense, but I'm not with you. Can you explain what you mean?
I just mean that many of the proponents of evolution have raised this question of star age as though it is indefensible for the creationist.
It is not that cut and dry... I just became aware of this 'light slowing down' thing today. So I was stunned, because I was totally satisfied with the answer that God created with appearent age.
With this, the debate is far less easily divided between a religious belief and science. This is a mind blower and has huge implicationsfor re-evaluating all of science.
If I may take some liberty... After thinking this argument over for a while yesturday, before getting home to check some sources on it, I thought of this verse, which now makes perfect sense:[qs]Job 38:4-11 "Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation? Tell me, if you understand. Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! Who stretched a measuring line across it? On what were its footings set, or who laid its cornerstone while the morning stars sang together and all the angels shouted for joy?"
I have to admit, the idea of light travelling at infinite or near infinite speed, would be glorious! It just makes good sense...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by nwr, posted 06-24-2006 11:40 AM Rob has replied
 Message 130 by Percy, posted 06-24-2006 12:05 PM Rob has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5875 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 131 of 297 (325659)
06-24-2006 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by nwr
06-24-2006 11:40 AM


Re: what debate?
You don't have to be a proponent of evolution to recognize that the universe is old - far older than Young Earth Creationism allows.
This doesn't alter the fact that the universe is old, and that Young Earth Creationism is badly wrong.
Old is a relative term...
Our facts about the universe appear to have been wrong in some degrees. Sounds to me like the position these laws have relative to each other may stay the same, but that the so-called cosmological constants that I used to love talking about, are not so constant after-all.
The jury is out on this on nwr, so relax and enjoy the ride. Most of us were arguing from the assumption that the laws of physics were constant; the speed of light being just one of them. Well, it appears God had another suprise for us all...
Do you like suprises my furry little friend?

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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5875 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 132 of 297 (325665)
06-24-2006 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by Percy
06-24-2006 12:05 PM


Re: what debate?
The problem with the "light slowing down" thing is that it contradicts known evidence.
I was expecting a lot more from you on this whether you argued against it, or thought it intriguing...
There is a long list of scientists, who think it may be a valid precisely because science is an approximation and not absolutely true.
In this case, as Paul davies clearly stated is initial shock, the implications are dramatic.
"When I first heard about these observations . . . I was, frankly, not only sceptical about it, I was appalled," Davies says. "I thought it was horrible. The last thing we wanted in theoretical physics was to have something like this."
(Paul Davies, Theorectical Physicist/ Australian Centre for Astrobiology)
Makes me wonder if you even read the quotes and links I peovided at all Percy. It is not cut and dry. It is a genuine debate...
Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5875 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 133 of 297 (325668)
06-24-2006 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by Percy
06-24-2006 12:05 PM


Re: what debate?
Another article from Worldnet Daily on this creation hoax:
Page not found - WND
Let's all take a serious look ok?
It is true that creation scientists have been too eager at times, but that is not something unique to creationists... it is something unique for all scientists, because they assume that the universe is ordered and intelligible. As a result, any forwarded theory or postulate is implied to be Gospel truth.
This is inescapable because we cannot move forward with out assuming our view to be true, irrespective of what our view is.
My sincere prayer, is that regardless of what the truth is, that we are seeking it, and not simply being defensive all the time. There is a time for defense, offensive, and consessions.
Rob
Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by CK, posted 06-24-2006 1:26 PM Rob has replied
 Message 136 by Percy, posted 06-24-2006 2:26 PM Rob has replied
 Message 137 by anglagard, posted 06-24-2006 2:34 PM Rob has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5875 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 138 of 297 (325719)
06-24-2006 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by CK
06-24-2006 1:26 PM


Re: what debate?
I notice that that article relies quite heavy on the Work of Barry Setterfield - the mainstream community thinks he is a crank. Now you might say "well of course they do! Because of their world view!"
Problem is - Answers in Genesis always rejects his work. Why do you think a major creation science organization rejects his work?
Paul Davies is also mentioned that and this is what AIG had to say about his work -
Dr Russell Humphreys writes:
Paul Davies’ Nature article itself falls far short of the hype, which is much ado about nearly nothing. General Relativity has had a variable speed of light ever since 1917. For the past six years, the physics journals have had a steady trickle of variable-c theories, including some by Davies. His latest article is only peripherally about a variable c. So why all the fuss?’
So if this is all about secular bias - why aren't christian science organizations backing it?
Good points CK. It's all new to me, but is very intriguing. Even if it proves false, I still fall back on 'created with appearent', but i would love if this argument hold's out. Science is no stranger to controversy, and this would not be the first time that whole fields of work were overturned. The fact is we may not know how this plays out for decades... I think it's safe to say that the jury is still out, so I am only suggesting we all keep our minds open on this 'age of the stars' point.
God and creation are not proveable [per se] with science, I think the logical conclusions of metaphysical philosophy is far more appropriate as a means of interpreting our view of the facts and deciding whether there is a Biblical God. With scientific facts, we never have a complete picture, so the answer lies in a combinational approach of different disciplines. Impericism, rationalism, and experience.
The rest of this below is off topic, so you may wish to disregard, or save response for another thread:
I have tried to point out that the most favorable argument for God is the moral argument, and that is the Biblical view as well. Without God, there is no morality (irrespective of what God actually is) because there is no assumed purpose for guidance.
All of this stuff is irrelevant if we are seeking a philosophy to suit us. If Christianity and creation are not true, then they are worthless for the purpose they are assumed to be true for. That purpose is to provide a way for God to reveal Himself as the prime reality that can only be found in the metaphysical
.
Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

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