Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 13/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Origins of Hell
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 4 of 28 (322358)
06-16-2006 3:49 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Faith
06-16-2006 3:40 PM


Forum Rules?
I can't claim to have any great historical knowledge on this subject, but I remember being quite surprised to find out that the concept of hell existed in versions of Hinduism and Buddhism, during the period when I was on my spiritual search, before I became a Christian.
Can you provide evidence for the assertion that Hinduism and Buddhism have a concept of Hell?
Remember forum rule 4:
Points should be supported with evidence and/or reasoned argumentation.
Please don't just 'say' things, at least provide a link or something other than your 'experience'.
There are many hells in these religions,
Are there? Can you perhaps support this claim?
apparently designed to punish particular types of sins in this world
Sins? Aren't you mixing up your world religions?
Can you perhaps inform us as to what a 'sin' is in Hunduism and Buddhism?
and they are all temporary
Because?
a sort of purgatory idea really I suppose
Ah, forcing a denomination of Christianity on to faiths that are much older, can you describe the concept of 'purgatory' in whatever branch of Christianity you get this from and then explain 'purgatory' in Hinduism and Buddhism?
and they also have a paradise for the good.
Buddhism has a paradise?
Could you tell us what the paradise is in Hinduism and Buddhism?
Illustrations of ferocious ugly demon "gods" in these religions also abound.
I know this because?
Are you aware that everything you posted is in violation of Rule 4, Points should be supported with evidence and/or reasoned argumentation.
You haven't supported a single thing in your post.
Could you please provide supporting evidence, then perhaps I can address your claims.
Many Thanks.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Faith, posted 06-16-2006 3:40 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Faith, posted 06-16-2006 4:03 PM Brian has replied
 Message 11 by AdminBuzsaw, posted 06-16-2006 11:41 PM Brian has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 6 of 28 (322368)
06-16-2006 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by arachnophilia
06-16-2006 3:55 PM


Plotinus and neoplatonism
I would say that Plotinus' 'neoplatonism' certainly had an influence on the Christian concept of hell.
A 'soul' that could only go back to 'God' if it was 'clean' was a powerful weapon for the early church. Especially when Jesus' promise to return soon wasn't honoured.
Neoplatonism
Brian.
Edited by Brian, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by arachnophilia, posted 06-16-2006 3:55 PM arachnophilia has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 8 of 28 (322374)
06-16-2006 4:16 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Faith
06-16-2006 4:03 PM


Re: Hindu and Buddhist Hells
Thanks for the links you provided, but there are still some unsuported assertions.
There are many hells in these religions,
You have provided a link for Buddhist 'hells' but only from one branch of Buddhism, I just wonder if it is a universal teaching f Buddhism?
Perhaps I have missed the evidence for 'hells' in Hinduism?
You haven't supported the claim that Hindus and Buddhists 'sin', perhaps you are placing an alien concept on to these faiths?
Also:
Ah, forcing a denomination of Christianity on to faiths that are much older, can you describe the concept of 'purgatory' in whatever branch of Christianity you get this from and then explain 'purgatory' in Hinduism and Buddhism?
Also unsupported:
Buddhism has a paradise?
Could you tell us what the paradise is in Hinduism and Buddhism?
Also, you claim:
Illustrations of ferocious ugly demon "gods" in these religions also abound.
You blatantly contradict yourself with this information from one of your links that tells us:
Unlike in other religions, the hell of Hindu religion is ruled by an evil persona, by Yama, a god of highest virtue
How does this 'supporting' information support you initial claim?
Perhaps you need to retract your claim about ferocious Hindu demon 'gods' of provide a link that actually supports your claim?
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Faith, posted 06-16-2006 4:03 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Faith, posted 06-16-2006 4:41 PM Brian has replied
 Message 10 by Faith, posted 06-16-2006 5:45 PM Brian has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 14 of 28 (322492)
06-17-2006 3:57 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Faith
06-16-2006 4:41 PM


Re: Hindu and Buddhist Hells
I think perhaps you should read my post more carefully as you are attributing things to it I don't see there.
I think you could read it a bit more carefully yourself as you are claiming there are things in it that simply aren’t.
“Bad deeds" is equivalent to "sin" for purposes of this discussion, in which I made it clear the equivalences between cultures are not exact.
I don’t see where you claim this in message 3, the original post I replied to.
"Paradise" is a lesser heaven. Such a place or state is clearly described in the post. There is also the Paradise of "Pure Land Buddhism."
You know that Pure Land Buddhism is a tiny branch of Buddhism yet you make a sweeping claim for all of Buddhism when you say that Buddhism has a paradise? Truth is, only one small sect of Buddhism has a heaven, in general Buddhism doesn’t teach this.
To be accurate, you should have said, “and one small denomination of Buddhism has a type of heaven.”
I have collected some Buddhist demon images off Google images but do not know how to post them. Perhaps I could email them to you and you could post them?
It’s fine, I know there’s a realm comparable to hell in Buddhism, but you claim is that There are many hells in these religions, which is something you haven’t supported. In fact, it is something that one of your links contradicts.
Message 7 The hell is a dark world,
“The hell” singular is presented here, how does that fit with the initial claim?
You have also failed to remove the contradiction between the claim of ugly demon gods in Hinduism and Unlike in other religions, the hell of Hindu religion is ruled by an evil persona, by Yama, a god of highest virtue.
I believe I said "some versions" of Buddhism and Hinduism have hells and heavens, as I am well aware that Zen for instance doesn't -- or at least doesn't regard them as locations.
I don’t believe you did say “some versions”, at least I cannot see where you said this before this post, maybe I have missed it, can you point me to it?
Hindu multiple hells are discussed on the same site I quoted:
And your quote contradicts your earlier claim.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Faith, posted 06-16-2006 4:41 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Faith, posted 06-17-2006 4:36 AM Brian has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 15 of 28 (322493)
06-17-2006 4:02 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by AdminBuzsaw
06-16-2006 11:41 PM


Re: Forum Rules?
As I understand item 4 of Forum Guidelines it does not specify that every little item must have documentation perse as per your accusation.
It says 'points' should be supported, not a single point in Faith's post was supported. Although to be fair some are now.
It's fine to request documentation, but I see no violation of the spirit of 4 here by Faith.
I dont see it as unreasonable to support claims about faith's that aren't that generally not well known. But, when I see something posted that I believe to be inaccurate then what is wrong with asking for documentation?
the whole item 4 which imo bears this out. Also we know that if we all try to document everything we post, it'd be silly and impractical.
Well, I didn't ask her to document everything, which makes your point rather 'pointless' and silly.
Keep up the good work, nice to see the creo Admins sticking together.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by AdminBuzsaw, posted 06-16-2006 11:41 PM AdminBuzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by AdminBuzsaw, posted 06-17-2006 8:42 AM Brian has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 17 of 28 (322499)
06-17-2006 4:53 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Faith
06-17-2006 4:36 AM


Re: Hindu and Buddhist Hells
The Pure Land example was an ADDITION to the earlier reference to the heavens that were given in the first supporting post.
I don’t see any reference to ”heavens’ in that post, does it mention any branch of Buddhism other than Pure Land that has a ”paradise’?
"Heaven" of the sort that occurs on the wheel of life does just fine as a synonym for "paradise." It's not the heaven of God but a place of rather human type pleasures.
So the comparison really isn’t all that strong then?
To that I added the mention of Pure Land paradise.
But Pure Land, such as Amitabhas Sukhaviti, is different from the ”paradise’ of the wheel of life. In the wheel of life version you are reborn on earth, whereas if you are fortunate enough to go to Amitabha’s heaven you will got to Nirvana eventually, you are not reborn, so I don’t see the comparison.
What is your problem with the word "sin" -- it's a good old English word for misdeeds of all sorts, and predates Christianity.
Exactly, it is a good old English word!
All I said was that these religions recognize many demon gods,
I didn't specify their activities.
Where is a demon god likely to dwell?
Also you got the quote wrong somehow: It should be "Unlike in other religions, the hell of Hindu religion is NOT ruled by an evil persona, BUT by Yama, a god of highest virtue."
I must have typed it out incorrectly, but it still contradicts your claim. If hell is not ruled by an evil persona, where do the ugly demon gods dwell?
You don’t half edit posts a lot, it is a good idea to type up in a word processing package first then cut and paste, saves a lot of time.
Anyway, thanks for the additional information, I am sure a lot of readeres are clearer now.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Faith, posted 06-17-2006 4:36 AM Faith has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024