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Author Topic:   On the verge of a break-through
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 1 of 112 (321772)
06-15-2006 8:54 AM


Ok, I know we have been through this like a zillion times, but I have one last question. It is rather insignificant, but I felt the need to ask it. Also, I don't want to offend anyone, but I am being honest.
I will sum up my total view on homosexuals, and same-sex marriage.
I hold two views, the first is one that I had most of my life, and is a non-religious view:
I was raised pretty much liberal, and was always taught that homosexuals are normal, and to treat them fairly. This is the way I always behaved, never discriminated, or held prejudice. As I grew older, I felt more and more uncomfortable about homosexuals, and my ignorance towards it exists. I just can't understand how two people of the same sex can be attracted to each other. It bothers me to see 2 men kissing, or 2 women kissing, holding hands, etc. I always thought, well tough shit on me, it's none of my fucking business. Fine, not everybody likes everything, and there is always bound to be someone offended somewhere. I am sure when I fly my model planes, that I am offending someone.
In America we are free, that means that the homosexual, and my plane flying should be able to exist in harmony, and we should be grateful for it.
Now, same-sex marriage. To me, it just never was, just like ice-cream isn’t steak. To me, marriage was supposed to be a symbol of a family. No matter what anyone says in this life, it is a sperm and an egg that begins life (technology excluded). It is a union between 2 people with the intentions of starting a family. If your unable to have kids, then you can always adopt. even a marriage where the couple decides not to have children, seems empty to me, like something is missing. again people will argue that is my narrow-minded view of the world. But I don't feel it is so narrow-minded.
Given the choice, people would always choose to be raised by their biological parents, provided they were treated with love. Rather than be raised by foster parents, or homosexual couples.
But, this is not life. Natural parents treat their children wrong, and there are many kids that have no parents, and need opportunities in life, and a gay couple would be awesome for them. Foster parents too.
I see all sides of the debate. I am a middle person, I always fall pretty close to the middle of any debate, even if it appears that I am one sided. (I may just be debating one sided, to help see both sides).
Regardless of all I just said, I still don't feel in my heart that same-sex relations, and marriage is "right". Screw me, oh well. It's who I am, and I can't help it. Please keep in mind, that I do not hate! It's how we got here. Everyone was a by-product of a sperm meeting an egg. It's how we evolved, or how we were made, whatever. It is the ultimate symbol of our race continuing to exist on this planet, a man making love to a woman, and to me it's what marriage should be a symbol of too.
I still don't know if we are born this way. I do know that if all men and woman stop having sex, then we cease to exist.
This is what I got out of debating in these forums, with homosexuals that I know, and life.
Enter America.
Now, for the religious view.
This may surprise you, but from a religious view, I find through my interpretation of the bible, that I must accept it in our government, but not for our leaders in churches.
It is a sin, period.
We are all sinners.
Leaders in churches should not be letting sin lead their lives, but try to live for God. That's what repentance is about. Of course we are not perfect, and we all sin, but that doesn't give us car-blanch to sin. If I was a Pastor, I would not be expected to bring my ho's into church with me. If I did it on the side, and got busted, I wouldn't expect to be a Pastor anymore.
Our job as a Christian is to love God with all our heart mind and soul, love others like we love ourselves. Not judge people.
If we can forgive ourselves for our own sins, then we can forgive others.
America was started to get away from religious persecution, so that we can live in a place where religion doesn't dictate who and what we are, but are free to express who we are, anyway we want. That means homosexuals too. To be against homosexuals in any kind of way is a detriment to our way of life.
So much for my 2 views on it.
I hate being called a bigot. My secular reasoning for it, makes me think that I am not a bigot, because you just can't call a truck, a plane.
I have decided to over look my secular view on it, because I don't want to be a hypocrite of any kind, or be a bigot of any kind. I have a battle of principals going on inside me.
Regardless of everything I just said, I have decided to be for same-sex marriage in our government, and let God deal with it. So pretty much I am forcing my religious views on others, and suppressing my secular view on it.
So here's the question, am I wrong now, for forcing my religious views on the rest of the nation?
Just try to answer the question, and not start a whole big arguement on why same-sex marriage is ok, I mentioned that I will support it.

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by nwr, posted 06-15-2006 9:22 AM riVeRraT has not replied
 Message 3 by jar, posted 06-15-2006 12:21 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 4 by sidelined, posted 06-15-2006 12:43 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 5 by rgb, posted 06-15-2006 1:02 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 12 by Parasomnium, posted 06-15-2006 4:54 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 15 by crashfrog, posted 06-15-2006 5:13 PM riVeRraT has not replied
 Message 25 by mike the wiz, posted 06-16-2006 10:54 AM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 58 by Jaderis, posted 06-18-2006 4:54 AM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 63 by ramoss, posted 06-18-2006 8:47 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 79 by berberry, posted 06-19-2006 1:39 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 92 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 06-23-2006 4:02 AM riVeRraT has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 13 of 112 (321974)
06-15-2006 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by sidelined
06-15-2006 12:43 PM


You can make a choice based only on what you have already been raised by.
Maybe yes, maybe no. I am not giving any absolutes. It is just the answer I recieve from everyone I ask.
People who don't know their biological parents sure wish they did, unless they are resentful. Then they just want to know why they did what they did.
I just returned from a trip to Boston, with my sister-in-laws husband, who is 42 and just meet his real mother for the first time. He was raised by not-so-nice people, and was resentful towards his real mother. He did not understand why some of his brothers and sisters got to be raised by his real mother, and he didn't. It was a monumentous occasion. It's more involved than that, but the lesson I learned from it is part of the reason I made the satement I did.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by sidelined, posted 06-15-2006 12:43 PM sidelined has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 14 of 112 (321975)
06-15-2006 5:13 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Parasomnium
06-15-2006 4:54 PM


Re: Commendation for riVeRraT
The only problem I have is with your phrase "I have decided to be for same-sex marriage in our government".
In our nation. You can be married by the government. That is what I meant.
But by the church would be up to the individual church.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Parasomnium, posted 06-15-2006 4:54 PM Parasomnium has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 17 of 112 (321979)
06-15-2006 5:17 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by jar
06-15-2006 12:21 PM


You are not forcing your religious views on the rest of the nation.
I am using "mostly" religious justification, or "my interpretation of the bible, and my faith" to justify my being for same sex marraige in our secular arena.
There is some secular reasoning, mostly that I do not want to be a bigot, or a hypocrite. Hence the battle of principals in my mind.
But I think from a Christian stand point, I must let it happen. Give due to ceaser what is due to him. Let God do the judging, and stand behind what it is that gives us our freedom to be whoever we want to be.
I swear, this is not easy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by jar, posted 06-15-2006 12:21 PM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by crashfrog, posted 06-15-2006 5:26 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 18 of 112 (321983)
06-15-2006 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by rgb
06-15-2006 1:02 PM


I don't think it's fair what you are doing. You realilze what you are demonstrating to me?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by rgb, posted 06-15-2006 1:02 PM rgb has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Parasomnium, posted 06-15-2006 5:27 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 23 by rgb, posted 06-15-2006 9:18 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 21 of 112 (321999)
06-15-2006 5:55 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by crashfrog
06-15-2006 5:26 PM


It's incoherent to suggest that being in favor of people getting gay marriages if they want them forces something on anybody. It doesn't make any sense, at least not if words have meanings.
So I guesss I am only forcing my religious views on myself then, lol.
Or I am forcing my religious views on the rest of the nation that is against it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by crashfrog, posted 06-15-2006 5:26 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 22 of 112 (322000)
06-15-2006 5:56 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Parasomnium
06-15-2006 5:27 PM


wife?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Parasomnium, posted 06-15-2006 5:27 PM Parasomnium has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 24 of 112 (322160)
06-16-2006 9:08 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by rgb
06-15-2006 9:18 PM


We must protect our right not to have same sex marriage in this nation. And as a nation, we will be judged.
Sorry, I never said that.
Nothing I have said is original.
Yes, it is, it's all lies. How can you have a intelligent debate when you don't speak truths?
From what you have told me in chat, to now, are 2 very different things. I can't take you seriously on anything you say from here on out. Nobody else should either.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by rgb, posted 06-15-2006 9:18 PM rgb has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by rgb, posted 06-16-2006 12:58 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 31 of 112 (322297)
06-16-2006 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by mike the wiz
06-16-2006 10:54 AM


Sinful and lawful are 2 different things.
but we're not obliged to endorse what God calls sin.
We are not endorsing it. As far as the church is concerned, I said it should not be allowed. I am not endorsing it but giving the freedom to choose what they want. It's their choice, not mine. I hate to look at it, but that is my problem isn't it? There are many things I hate to look at that are legal.
If we don't want our children to think it is ok, then it's really up to us to fully explain to them why it isn't, and up to us to be good enough spiritual leaders, that God will show them also. God will bless my family, if I follow Him.
As far as the world is concerned, if I deny it, then I deny my own right to practice whatever religion I see fit, or however I interpret it.
If I endorse it, or I don't endorse it, I am judging it. The bible tells us it is a sin. I feel it is a sin also, but I won't judge it. I will instead put my faith in God for Him to deal with it.
God has gave us freewill, but does that then mean that we should preach that desire should simply be fulfilled?
Christian is not the national religion. Freedom is.
That that pathetic person would actually murder a child to satisfy his hard-on, is evidence that desire can be a sickeningly wicked and evil thing.
No doubt, but there is no comparison between the two. All sins are equal, so in God's eyes we all sin, and fall short.
The problem with murder is that it involves the unwillingness of one party. There is no consent. Homosexuals consent to each other, so we do not have to protect them from themselves, or tell them what is sin or not. That is between them and God.
In a church, of course this is different. There should at least be an attempt at making a place Holy, and sin free. This doesn't mean gays should stay out of church, but that nobody should be practicing their sins within the walls of the church.
Even Paul was a sinner and struggled with sin. He got away with his sin legally, and was tortured for his belief in God. What is wrong with that picture? Who should judge us, man or God?
It is only marriage which sanctifies and cleanses the desire, that it is there for a purpose.
A marraige in God's eyes, in the church, not in the world. There 2 kinds of marraige.
Now all of this desire is from the selfish evil flesh, and we know it's nature; that it would murder to gratify. Therefore we are guilty of obeying our evil selfish genes.
This is the only evidence I can find that answers the question if gay people are born that way or not. If God made em that way, then God must show them a way out.
There is no doubt in my mind that one touch of the Holy Spirit would show them a way around it. I have seen it happen before. The Holy Spirit has removed several of my sinful desires.
But do we then endorse fornication, and believe that it is "fine" to do what God says to not do.
Jesus said to run from sexual immorality, not lock them up, or make it illegal in our governement. But then again Jesus hung out with the sinners, and maybe he just wants us to run from it in our hearts.
Seems to me like you are using your religious views, and interpretations to define morality for the nation. Can you think of a non-religious view why it is wrong?
Maybe we should make a national religion, and force you to follow it, or burn in hell.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by mike the wiz, posted 06-16-2006 10:54 AM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by nator, posted 06-16-2006 7:01 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 48 by mike the wiz, posted 06-17-2006 10:54 AM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 80 by berberry, posted 06-19-2006 2:09 PM riVeRraT has not replied
 Message 87 by ramoss, posted 06-21-2006 9:34 AM riVeRraT has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 32 of 112 (322303)
06-16-2006 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by rgb
06-16-2006 12:58 PM


And now that you have changed your mind, you are uncomfortable with people who disagree with you. Perhaps it's time you try to see this from the side of the debate you used to dislike?
I haven't really changed my heart on how I feel about it, only decided not to push this view on the world/nation.
I see things from all sides, always, I have been one many sides already.
I was never uncomfortable with people who disagree with me. I embrace the freedom we share in being able to disagree, and would rescue anyone on this forum from a burning car with my life, if I had the chance.
I just want you to be honest in who and what you are, and argue from that standpoint, and not play devils advocate. This way there can be some relative meaning to your words.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by rgb, posted 06-16-2006 12:58 PM rgb has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by rgb, posted 06-16-2006 2:46 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 34 of 112 (322306)
06-16-2006 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by rgb
06-16-2006 1:07 PM


Jesus never mentioned about specific sexual acts, but he did repeatedly referred to the sexual immoralities that were mentioned in the OT.
Jesus did not come to judge, but to save.
If the law says there will come a time when the law will change, then it must change, that is fulfillment.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by rgb, posted 06-16-2006 1:07 PM rgb has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 43 of 112 (322411)
06-16-2006 7:13 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by rgb
06-16-2006 2:46 PM


The fact that you have decided to stop pushing your view onto the world is a change itself.
I never really pushed my view on the world to begin with. It's really not up to me.
What I am saying is, should it come to it, I would vote for same-sex marriage.
I see things from all sides, always, I have been one many sides already.
Forgive me, but I simply disagree.
Then you pretend to know me.
While you might be embracing this freedom now, you did not embrace it in the past.
Always, thanks for not judging me.
Who said I was playing devil's advocate?
Dude, who are you, and what are you?
Why do you pretend to be something your not?
quote:This way there can be some relative meaning to your words.
The all seeing eyes of the rat talking?
All I'm saying to is, don't be one person in the forums, than another person in chat, it don't work for me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by rgb, posted 06-16-2006 2:46 PM rgb has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 44 of 112 (322413)
06-16-2006 7:19 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by nator
06-16-2006 7:01 PM


You never cease to amaze me. Even when you agree with me, you still have to disagree with me. And I wtill say your reading comprehension is lacking.
I will quote myself from Message 1
"Please keep in mind, that I do not hate! "
Can you do me a favor and explain how you got that I hate gays from any of this? It makes no sense to me at all.
Logical thinking, after reading all I just wrote, could only bring you to the decision that if I hate gays, then I hate myself.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by nator, posted 06-16-2006 7:01 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by nator, posted 06-17-2006 8:42 AM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 50 of 112 (322553)
06-17-2006 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by nator
06-17-2006 8:42 AM


You know what, I wish I knew why I "hated" to look at it too. That bothers me about myself. I probably shouldn't have used the word hate, but dislike.
That is the battle of principals in my mind.
But there are many things that we dislike to look at, isn't it all just subjective?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by nator, posted 06-17-2006 8:42 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by mike the wiz, posted 06-17-2006 12:50 PM riVeRraT has not replied
 Message 55 by rgb, posted 06-17-2006 5:51 PM riVeRraT has not replied
 Message 68 by nator, posted 06-19-2006 7:43 AM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 52 of 112 (322560)
06-17-2006 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by mike the wiz
06-17-2006 10:54 AM


My only real point in this thread, is to state that I will not endores/please men by voicing a condoning voice for the gays. Nor have I judged them.
Yes, you have judged them. which really isn't a big deal, until you start passing that judgement onto others. we all look at things and judge them based on what we know. It's when we start voicing that opinion, we get into trouble.
The very right that lets you speak what you just spoke, according to your belief's, is the very same right that will eventually allow same-sex marriage. It has nothing to do with God.
It doesn't have to be a marriage in the church, or in God's eye's. Isn't it always a matter of heart?
Is there anything in the NT that tells us that we should be making rules in our governement, or punishing people for being who they want to be?
Even Jesus seemed to have wanted a separation between church and state, when he said give what's due to ceasar, and give waht's due to God.
So, to me, we are left with secular reasoning why we shouldn't allow it. Can you think of any? And if you can, it must be greater than our freedom, or be a threat to it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by mike the wiz, posted 06-17-2006 10:54 AM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by mike the wiz, posted 06-17-2006 1:06 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
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