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Author Topic:   Opinions and conclusions about Religion and God.
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 136 of 280 (322226)
06-16-2006 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 135 by Rob
06-16-2006 10:22 AM


Re: the definition of faith
Everything we believe factual or not about Christ is faith...
exactly. we have not seen.
Edited by arachnophilia, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by Rob, posted 06-16-2006 10:22 AM Rob has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 137 of 280 (322399)
06-16-2006 6:26 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by Phat
06-16-2006 2:52 AM


Re: Belief through observation of others
quote:
Bill Bright was a trustworthy source. Google him and see what you get.
I mostly learned that Bright founded the Campus Crusade for Christ.
What about this makes him a trustworthy source?
Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by Phat, posted 06-16-2006 2:52 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by Phat, posted 06-18-2006 3:34 AM nator has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 138 of 280 (322400)
06-16-2006 6:29 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by iano
06-16-2006 6:03 AM


...all those references to God, and Jesus, and the Holy Spirit...
It was all so meaningless and absurd.
quote:
In the setting you were in I'm not surprised.
Ah, so the setting in which Jesus and God are spoken of determines if I will believe or not.
That sounds very much like a merchandising/marketing issue to me.
quote:
A noteworthy if notorius former prime minister of ours died a couple of days ago and was laid out in an open coffin. The photo of him showed a set of Rosary beads intertwined around his dead fingers. The headline
At Peace.
I wonder how they know that?
They don't.
Nobody does.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by iano, posted 06-16-2006 6:03 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by iano, posted 06-16-2006 6:48 PM nator has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 139 of 280 (322404)
06-16-2006 6:48 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by nator
06-16-2006 6:29 PM


Nobody does (know were they will go after the grave)
Cept those who know where they themselves are going. You might suspect for another, strongly even. But certainty - thats personal
Ah, so the setting in which Jesus and God are spoken of determines if I will believe or not.
No. But it certainly affects the "ugh" factor
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by nator, posted 06-16-2006 6:29 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by nator, posted 06-19-2006 8:16 AM iano has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 140 of 280 (322798)
06-18-2006 3:34 AM
Reply to: Message 137 by nator
06-16-2006 6:26 PM


Re: Belief through observation of others
schrafinator writes:
I mostly learned that Bright founded the Campus Crusade for Christ.
What about this makes him a trustworthy source?
*sigh* I heard a lot of personal anecdotes about the man after he died. Many different sources and all of whom portrayed a well respected man. Of course I don't expect you to acknowledge him based on my word any more than I acknowledge him based on the words of a few...but if you had heard the eulogies, you would know what I mean. BTW why are you so darn skeptical, Schraff? There ARE honest Christians, you know.

“There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, "All right, then, have it your way” --C.S.Lewis

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by nator, posted 06-16-2006 6:26 PM nator has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by ramoss, posted 06-18-2006 9:24 AM Phat has replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 141 of 280 (322849)
06-18-2006 9:15 AM
Reply to: Message 132 by Phat
06-16-2006 2:52 AM


Re: Belief through observation of others
I don't consider the 'Crusader for Christ' to be a good source for an organisation (having had personal experiance with their attempt to try to convert me when I was in college).
Why should I accept that their founder would be a reliable source for anything?

This message is a reply to:
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ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 142 of 280 (322850)
06-18-2006 9:21 AM
Reply to: Message 134 by iano
06-16-2006 6:03 AM


In the setting you were in I'm not surprised. A noteworthy if notorius former prime minister of ours died a couple of days ago and was laid out in an open coffin. The photo of him showed a set of Rosary beads intertwined around his dead fingers. The headline
At Peace.
I wonder how they know that?
And how do you know that is would not be? Perhaps, it is just a hope, and a comfort for the survivors.
Funerals are not for benefit of the deceased, but rather to comfort those people who are left behind. IMO, part of the rituals are to try to reinforced the beliefs of the survivors, because when someone passes away, that is often when the doubts of the survivors surface and can cause them to 'stray'.
For me, the rituals of the RCC, (or any religion) is meaningless. For others, it gives comfort. It all depends on what you are used to and expect.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by iano, posted 06-16-2006 6:03 AM iano has not replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 143 of 280 (322852)
06-18-2006 9:24 AM
Reply to: Message 140 by Phat
06-18-2006 3:34 AM


Re: Belief through observation of others
And you believe the andedotes?
I have personal experiance with the 'Campus Crusaders for Christ' that make me view that entire organisation as very untrustworthy.
Why should I view it's founder as 'trustworthy'?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by Phat, posted 06-18-2006 3:34 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by Phat, posted 06-19-2006 3:49 AM ramoss has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 144 of 280 (323104)
06-19-2006 3:49 AM
Reply to: Message 143 by ramoss
06-18-2006 9:24 AM


Re: Belief through observation of others
You have a point, ramoss, but you know as well as I that the integrity and compassion (or the lack thereof) of a few campus volunteers can hardly be used to mirror the integrity of the founder.
Christians have scruples, and even among our own kind, we see the sharks. We know Pat Robertson has unexcusible flaws. We know the wolves among the sheep. We also know when a man shows above average integrity. Dr. Bill Bright was such a man. If you can't see or accept my assertion, lets just drop Bright from our discussion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by ramoss, posted 06-18-2006 9:24 AM ramoss has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by ramoss, posted 06-19-2006 8:22 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 148 by nator, posted 06-19-2006 8:39 AM Phat has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 145 of 280 (323150)
06-19-2006 8:16 AM
Reply to: Message 139 by iano
06-16-2006 6:48 PM


Nobody does (know were they will go after the grave)
quote:
Cept those who know where they themselves are going.
But you don't know. Nobody does. That's my point.
You believe you'll go somewhere, but you don't know.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by iano, posted 06-16-2006 6:48 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by iano, posted 06-19-2006 8:18 AM nator has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 146 of 280 (323152)
06-19-2006 8:18 AM
Reply to: Message 145 by nator
06-19-2006 8:16 AM


You believe you'll go somewhere, but you don't know.
How do you know that?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by nator, posted 06-19-2006 8:16 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by nator, posted 06-19-2006 8:48 AM iano has replied
 Message 195 by Larni, posted 06-26-2006 3:33 AM iano has replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 147 of 280 (323153)
06-19-2006 8:22 AM
Reply to: Message 144 by Phat
06-19-2006 3:49 AM


Re: Belief through observation of others
Yes, let us drop Bill Bright from the discussion. After all, it isn't just the tactics of one or two misguided invididuals, but it is the M.O. of the entire organization I am objecting too, and it continues to this day.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by Phat, posted 06-19-2006 3:49 AM Phat has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 148 of 280 (323158)
06-19-2006 8:39 AM
Reply to: Message 144 by Phat
06-19-2006 3:49 AM


Re: Belief through observation of others
quote:
Christians have scruples, and even among our own kind, we see the sharks. We know Pat Robertson has unexcusible flaws. We know the wolves among the sheep. We also know when a man shows above average integrity.
I have not found this to be the case.
Many of the Christians I have known personally have tended to believe another Christian is scrupulous and has integrity simply because they are Christian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by Phat, posted 06-19-2006 3:49 AM Phat has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 149 of 280 (323162)
06-19-2006 8:48 AM
Reply to: Message 146 by iano
06-19-2006 8:18 AM


You believe you'll go somewhere, but you don't know.
quote:
How do you know that?
That answer is a bullshit derailing tactic, and I'll thank you to not use it again.
You believe that you will go somewhere, but you don't know that you will.
You cannot know because it is unknowable.
Nobody knows, but they may believe.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by iano, posted 06-19-2006 8:18 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by iano, posted 06-19-2006 9:11 AM nator has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 150 of 280 (323172)
06-19-2006 9:11 AM
Reply to: Message 149 by nator
06-19-2006 8:48 AM


How do you know that?
That answer is a bullshit derailing tactic, and I'll thank you to not use it again
Might I suggest that you believe I cannot know I am going to heaven but that I only believe that I am going?
We've been around this circular track before Schraf. Lets break out by agreeing to differ.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by nator, posted 06-19-2006 8:48 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by nator, posted 06-19-2006 10:16 AM iano has replied

  
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