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Author Topic:   the underlying assumptions rig the debate
randman 
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Posts: 6367
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Message 91 of 246 (322951)
06-18-2006 4:49 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by Percy
06-18-2006 3:40 PM


Re: science fiction as an argument
Percy, the problem with your bare assertions "that no one agrees with you
Edited by randman, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Percy, posted 06-18-2006 3:40 PM Percy has not replied

  
PaulK
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Posts: 17825
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 92 of 246 (322952)
06-18-2006 4:49 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by randman
06-18-2006 4:31 PM


Re: general reply to all
quote:
That's correct. You are stating your position (an assumption) without any substantiation.
Which does substantiate my posiiton on the actual point at issue - whether it is possible to disagree with your ideas without disagreeing with quantum entanglement.
As for the quantum eraser it is specifically described as erasing information which would make it possible to track the photon's path. Thus it works by removing any way of telling that the photon's path had "changed". I repeat my point - if it is possible to simply change the past as you suggest, why is such a thing needed ? If your view were correct, what difference could it make ?
quote:
And the way it is affected is that instead of being a superoposition of states it is one single state. That's it. In other words it presents absolutely no support for your idea.
How is that not hard evidence of what I am talking about, PaulK. There is clearly a definite change in what the photon does, behaving more like a particle or more like a wave. It is affected, right?
Your assertion is that the past can be changed form one fixed state to another. Changing from a superposition of states to a fixed state is not that and does not support that.
quote:
That's what the experiment is showing. It doesn't explain this coorelation between potential knowledge and the wave-function, but it does demonstrate it.
Which is why it is evidence against your position. It relies on information not being available even in principle. But your view requires changing a lot of information that was knowable in principle. Thus the experiment contradicts your claims.
quote:
I'm not sure how well supported Zeilinger's ideas on entanglement in macroscopic objects are. Certainly my own reading indicates that the idea that macroscopic changes automatically collapse the wave function was widely held.
As was the idea that the quantum eraser was totally impossible, but we see that was not the case, don't we?
If the best you can do is point out that a tentative point might be wrong then it seems that you don't have much of a case.s

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by randman, posted 06-18-2006 4:31 PM randman has replied

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 Message 95 by randman, posted 06-18-2006 5:04 PM PaulK has replied

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4920 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 93 of 246 (322953)
06-18-2006 4:51 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by Percy
06-18-2006 3:40 PM


Re: science fiction as an argument
Percy, the problem with your bare assertions "that no one agrees with you

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Percy, posted 06-18-2006 3:40 PM Percy has not replied

  
randman 
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Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 94 of 246 (322954)
06-18-2006 4:53 PM


real problems with the board....to percy
Percy, I can't seem to fix this in reply mode to you so I am trying here.
Percy, the problem with your bare assertions "that no one agrees with you (randman)" is that basically that's all it is, and when someone does agree with one aspect of a point, such as PaulK stating an undeterminative aspect of the past does become determinate, you jump and try to explain that away. Imo, you are offering no substance at all on this thread. Please substantiate your claims. Specifically:
In the delayed-choice and other experiments, does the ability to know which path a photon took coorealate to whether it travels on one path as a particle or on all possible paths as a wave?
Does this collapsing to one path occur even when the means to determine what path the photon took occurs in a delayed fashion after the photon has already taken it's path?
Just answer those 2 questions please, and substantiate your answers with references to actual experiments or quotes from someone analyzing those experiments.

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 Message 98 by Percy, posted 06-18-2006 5:39 PM randman has replied

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4920 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 95 of 246 (322955)
06-18-2006 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by PaulK
06-18-2006 4:49 PM


Re: general reply to all
Your assertion is that the past can be changed form one fixed state to another.
No, I am arguing that there is no reason at all to claim the past has a fixed state, and I have provided ample evidence both in forms of quotes from prominent scientists and hard lab experiments to demonstrate this is something both the data and respected scientists like Wheeler agree with.
You have offered incredulity.
Changing from a superposition of states to a fixed state is not that and does not support that.
What do you think it is then? Superposition (all possible paths) collapsing to one single path and then back again is not a change in your opinion?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by PaulK, posted 06-18-2006 4:49 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by PaulK, posted 06-18-2006 5:32 PM randman has replied

  
Iblis
Member (Idle past 3917 days)
Posts: 663
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 96 of 246 (322959)
06-18-2006 5:18 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by randman
06-18-2006 4:38 PM


Re: whose mistaken assumption
a system that manifests 2 or more discrete forms in the material universe
No, we have a waveform with some aspects of a particle which can only be trapped once in any given point-event.
over long distances and considering GR, irrespective of time,
No, the waveform propagates, collapses, sings hymns to itself, whatever it may be imagined as doing, at exactly C.
does it act particle-like and take one path or does it behave like a wave and take all potential paths
It always behaves like a wave, it always takes all potential paths, if we make it impossible to measure any path but one then it appears to behave merely like a particle, this appearance was once believed to have some bearing on reality, these experiments prove that it does not.
the action at the end of it's path affects which path the particle took before it ever got to the end of it's path
Dead wrong. If this were true, if it could be true, then Entanglement wouldn't be replacing Heisenberg as the cutting edge of QUIP research. The action taken at any single point in the waveform simply makes other previous actions irrelevant and immeasurable.
the action at the end of it's path affects which path the particle took before it ever got to the end of it's path
Categorically false. The photon only appears to behave like a particle if we prevent all wavelike aspects of its behavior from being observed. The same is true of sound, it could be (mistakenly) proven to be a particle if we block one of the slits.
Let's say you have two speakers on your stereo, and you turn one off. Now you have mono. That's your fault, writing the stereo manufacturer and saying he ripped you off would be fraud.
Here's an example of what I mean by fraud. Let's say someone "proves" that the moon is not made of green cheese. They do it by pointing out that cheese ferments and produces noxious chemicals over time, and life on earth would have been destroyed by these chemicals somehow.
Capitalizing on the language being used to overthrow Heisenberg to promote false ideas about science and theology is ethically equivalent to selling gas-masks to protect the general populace from deadly moon-fumes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by randman, posted 06-18-2006 4:38 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17825
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 97 of 246 (322963)
06-18-2006 5:32 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by randman
06-18-2006 5:04 PM


Re: general reply to all
quote:
No, I am arguing that there is no reason at all to claim the past has a fixed state, and I have provided ample evidence both in forms of quotes from prominent scientists and hard lab experiments to demonstrate this is something both the data and respected scientists like Wheeler agree with.
I beleive that this is an equivocation. I was referring to the distnction between a superposition of states and the "collapsed" state. nless you are claimign that there is no collapse and that everytihng always exists in a superposition of states (which makes nonsense of your position) you are claiming that the past is changed from one collapsed state to a different collapsed state.
quote:
You have offered incredulity.
As I reminded you in the first place this discussion started because you denied that my position was even possible.
Further I will point out that I have directly addressed your interpretations of the experiments you referred to and pointed out flaws.
According to the very experiments you referred to the superposition of states only exists when the information that would allow us to narrow down to a single state is not available. Yet the only "changes" in the experiemnts rely on superposition. It is no argument from incredulity to state that that proves that the experiments you brought up do not support you claims
quote:
Changing from a superposition of states to a fixed state is not that and does not support that.
What do you think it is then? Superposition (all possible paths) collapsing to one single path and then back again is not a change in your opinion?
Changing from a superposition of states to a collapsed state is not the same as changing from a collapsed state to another collapsed state. The closest you have got requires the use of a quantum eraser which makes the previous collapsed state unknwable in principle. Needless to say there is nothing to perform such a role in your original argument nor any prospect of such a thing.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by randman, posted 06-18-2006 5:04 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by randman, posted 06-18-2006 6:24 PM PaulK has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22480
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 98 of 246 (322965)
06-18-2006 5:39 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by randman
06-18-2006 4:53 PM


Re: real problems with the board....to percy
randman writes:
Just answer those 2 questions please, and substantiate your answers with references to actual experiments or quotes from someone analyzing those experiments.
We're talking about the same experiments. It has already been pointed out multiple times by multiple people how you are misinterpreting the English descriptions to reach false conclusions. My descriptions are just my own poor attempts to present the current scientific interpretations of the same experiments.
The thing I don't understand is why you believe backward causality is an accepted view within science. It isn't. I also don't understand why you believe there is strong experimental support for backward causality. There isn't.
One other thing. The backward causality you're arguing for doesn't even provide what you need to support your claim that the past that actually happened is different from the evidence about that past that we find today. Your backward causality changes the past to correspond to what we find today. So you're not only wrong about backward causality, it doesn't help your original point anyway.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by randman, posted 06-18-2006 4:53 PM randman has replied

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4920 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 99 of 246 (322975)
06-18-2006 6:17 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by Percy
06-18-2006 5:39 PM


Re: real problems with the board....to percy
It has already been pointed out multiple times by multiple people how you are misinterpreting the English descriptions to reach false conclusions.
A better way to describe this is a highly partisan group facing an attack on a cherished belief system has disagreed with the English descriptions here, but that I have offered numerous examples of those same English descriptions being offered by others, including noted scientists in that field, and you guys have offered absolutely no evidence outside of your own dogmatic assertions.
I suggest you reread my post and answer these basic questions:
In the delayed-choice and other experiments, does the ability to know which path a photon took coorealate to whether it travels on one path as a particle or on all possible paths as a wave?
Does this collapsing to one path occur even when the means to determine what path the photon took occurs in a delayed fashion after the photon has already taken it's path?
Just answer those 2 questions please, and substantiate your answers with references to actual experiments or quotes from someone analyzing those experiments.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Percy, posted 06-18-2006 5:39 PM Percy has not replied

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4920 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 100 of 246 (322979)
06-18-2006 6:24 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by PaulK
06-18-2006 5:32 PM


Re: general reply to all
To try to get some basis of agreement, I pose the same questions to you as I did to percy.
In the delayed-choice and other experiments, does the ability to know which path a photon took coorealate to whether it travels on one path as a particle or on all possible paths as a wave?
Does this collapsing to one path occur even when the means to determine what path the photon took occurs in a delayed fashion after the photon has already taken it's path?
Just answer those 2 questions please, and substantiate your answers with references to actual experiments or quotes from someone analyzing those experiments.
Changing from a superposition of states to a collapsed state is not the same as changing from a collapsed state to another collapsed state.
I don't think you are appreciating what these experiments show. The experiments suggest that a superposition exists until someone sets up or there is set up a means of determining one single path. As such, this depicts reality and past reality as existing either in a multitude of possible and yet real realities simultaneously, or in an unreal or undefined state as Wheeler claims, until as it were a question is asked of it. Regardless, the nature of the question coorelates to what form the past takes. That is, no matter how much you want to dismiss it, evidence that the question in the present has a determinative effect or coorelates to what the past becomes. The past becomes in part due to the present. That's what this shows, and you earlier admitted to.
Now, you can claim all you want that this never violates previous observations, but in making that statement you are ignoring a fundamental issue, and that is that asking the same set of reality a different question using a different means can yield a different result as the quantum eraser demonstrates. That shows there is some flexibility in what we think of as the past, just as I have been saying all along.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by PaulK, posted 06-18-2006 5:32 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by PaulK, posted 06-19-2006 2:18 AM randman has replied

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4920 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 101 of 246 (322986)
06-18-2006 6:36 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by Iblis
06-18-2006 5:18 PM


you deny wave/partical duality then?
So you deny wave/partical duality then?
Are you holding to the many-worlds interpretation or are you claiming there is no reason to suggest that interpretation as you don't believe there is ever a collapse to one path in the first place?
If you don't believe the particle-liek behaviour is anything but an artifice of our own delusions in observation, then where is the interference pattern?
If the photon continues to propogate as a wave, then the interference pattern should appear in these experiments, and it does not. How do you explain that, and why do you disagree with these researchers in that regard?
In the two-slit experiments, the physicist's choice of apparatus forces the photon to choose between going through both slits like a wave or just one slit, like a particle. But what would happen,Wheeler asked, if the researcher could somehow wait until after the light bad passed the two slits before deciding how to observe it?
Five years after Wheeler outlined what he called the delayed-choice experiment, it was carried out independently by groups at the University of Maryland and the University of Munich. They aimed a laser beam not at a plate with two slits but at a beam splitter, a mirror coated with just enough silver to reflect half of the photons impinging on it and let the other half pass through. After diverging at the beam splitter the two beams were guided back together by mirrors and fed into a detector.
This initial setup provided no way for the investigators to test whether any individual photon had gone right or left at the beam splitter. Consequently, each photon went both ways splitting into two wavelets that ended up interfering with each other at the detector.
Then the workers installed a customized crystal called a Pockels Cell in the middle of one route. When an electric current was applied to the Pockels Cell, it diffracted photons to an auxiliary detector. Otherwise, photons passed through the cell unhindered. A random signal generator made it possible to turn the cell on or off after the photon had already passed the beam splitter but before it reached the detector as Wheeler had specified.
When the Pockels-cell detector was switched on, the photon would behave like a particle and travel one route or the other, triggering either the auxiliary detector or the primary detector, buy not both at once. If the Pockels-cell detector was off ,an interference pattern would appear in the detector at the end of both paths, indicating that the photon bad travelled both routes.
To underscore the weirdness of this effect, Wheeler points out that astronomers could perform a delayed-choice experiment on light from quasars, extremely bright, mysterious objects found near the edges of the universe. In place of a beam splitter and mirrors the experiment requires a gravitational lens, a galaxy or other massive object that splits the light from a quasar and refocuses it in the direction of a distant observer, creating two or more images of the quasar.
Psychic Photons
The astronomers choice of how to observe photons from the quasar here in the present apparently determines whether each photon took both paths or just one path around the gravitational lens-billions of years ago. As they approached the galactic beam splitter the photons must have had something like a premonition telling them how to behave in order to satisfy a choice to be made by unborn beings on a still nonexistent planet.
The fallacy giving rise to such speculations,Wheeler explains, is the assumption that a photon had some physical form before the astronomer observed it. Either it was a wave or a particle; either it went both ways around the quasar or only one way. Actually Wheeler says quantum phenomena are neither waves nor particles but are intrinsically undefined until the moment they are measured.
http://www.fortunecity.com/emachines/e11/86/qphil.html#
Edited by randman, : No reason given.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by cavediver, posted 06-18-2006 7:44 PM randman has replied
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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4920 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 102 of 246 (39231)
05-07-2003 10:45 AM


for Iblis: down-converter experiments
Now comes the odd part. The signal photons and the idler photons, once emitted by the down-converters, never again cross paths; they proceed to their respective detectors independently of each other. Nevertheless, simply by blocking the path of one set of idler photons, the researchers destroy the interference pattern of the signal photons. What has changed?
The answer is that the observer's potential knowledge has changed. He can now determine which route the signal photons took to their detector by comparing their arrival times with those of the remaining, unblocked idlers. The original photon can no longer go both ways at the beam splitter, like a wave, but must either bounce off or pass through like a particle.
The comparison of arrival times need not actually be performed to destroy the interference pattern. The mere "threat" of obtaining information about which way the photon travelled, Mandel explains, forces it to travel only one route. "The quantum state reflects not only what we know about the system but what is in principle knowable," Mandel says.
http://www.fortunecity.com/emachines/e11/86/qphil.html#
What this experiment shows that merely changing the potential to determine what path a photon takes results in the photon taking only one path. There is no interference pattern and so the wave-function in our observed universe does not take all possible paths.
Edited by randman, : No reason given.

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22480
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 103 of 246 (323002)
06-18-2006 7:30 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by randman
05-07-2003 10:45 AM


Re: for Iblis: down-converter experiments
Hi Randman,
Well, as anyone can see, your message is dated 5/7/2003, more than three years ago. I don't know how you did it, but I think we have to accept this as a demonstration that the present can indeed change the past. Someone please notify the physicists.
--Percy

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 Message 102 by randman, posted 05-07-2003 10:45 AM randman has replied

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Iblis
Member (Idle past 3917 days)
Posts: 663
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 104 of 246 (323003)
06-18-2006 7:32 PM


Thread still exists, you just had trouble measuring it for a minute.
I won't be repeating myself though, "categorically false" is where I stop. The answers to your pointy questions are contained in my previous posts and revolve around what an "interference pattern" actually consists of.
Good luck with that misrepresentation-by-proxy tic you have developed

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6409
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 105 of 246 (323011)
06-18-2006 7:42 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by Percy
06-18-2006 7:30 PM


Re: for Iblis: down-converter experiments
Well, as anyone can see, your message is dated 5/7/2003, ...
Not only that, but randman edited it 4/14/2002, more than a year before it was written.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by Percy, posted 06-18-2006 7:30 PM Percy has not replied

  
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