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Author Topic:   IC & the Cambrian Explosion for Ahmad...cont..
mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 167 of 199 (32207)
02-14-2003 4:58 AM
Reply to: Message 161 by peter borger
02-13-2003 6:19 PM


Peter B,
quote:
PB: Ages ago you gave your definaition of TF and I sid Show me the money. You did, I guess, so what's the fuss about?
So we agree our terms, then?
Mark
------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by peter borger, posted 02-13-2003 6:19 PM peter borger has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by peter borger, posted 02-14-2003 11:14 AM mark24 has replied

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 169 of 199 (32284)
02-14-2003 4:14 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by peter borger
02-14-2003 11:14 AM


Peter B,
quote:
Is this your definition of a TF?
I have amended it to be:
"A transitional is a form that possesses character states that are part way between two separate taxa, &/or a mix of discrete characters between two taxa."
Any evo's disagree, or would like to make an addition?
Mark
------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.
[This message has been edited by mark24, 02-14-2003]
[This message has been edited by mark24, 02-14-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by peter borger, posted 02-14-2003 11:14 AM peter borger has not replied

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 173 of 199 (32347)
02-15-2003 8:13 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by peter borger
02-15-2003 7:40 PM


Peter,
Do we agree terms, or what?
Mark
------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by peter borger, posted 02-15-2003 7:40 PM peter borger has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by peter borger, posted 02-15-2003 11:02 PM mark24 has replied

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 175 of 199 (32353)
02-16-2003 5:23 AM
Reply to: Message 174 by peter borger
02-15-2003 11:02 PM


Peter,
quote:
PB: I am waiting for the general agreement of evo's. Furthermore, I am afraid that we also have to define 'character', 'taxa', 'mix' and 'discrete characters'. And "part between" is very, very vague. Let's define it too.
Does any evo have any criticism of the following definition & defined terms? Comments welcome, even looks good to me is appreciated
"A transitional is a form that possesses character states that are part way between two separate taxa, &/or a mix of discrete characters between two taxa."
Character: The physical state of a part of the organism whilst it was living.
Discrete character: The existence of a separate & distinct physical state as part of the organism. Describing an on/off condition rather than a variable one.
Taxa: Biological classification of organisms forming a nested hierarchy of ranks. Any rank is relevant from Kingdom to species.
Mix: A combination of.
Part way: A condition between two extremes.
Mark
------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by peter borger, posted 02-15-2003 11:02 PM peter borger has not replied

Replies to this message:
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mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 178 of 199 (32445)
02-17-2003 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by derwood
02-17-2003 12:26 PM


Thank you gentlemen, Mr Borger, do you agree?
Mark
------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by derwood, posted 02-17-2003 12:26 PM derwood has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by peter borger, posted 02-17-2003 8:24 PM mark24 has replied

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 180 of 199 (32543)
02-18-2003 9:00 AM
Reply to: Message 179 by peter borger
02-17-2003 8:24 PM


Peter,
Do you agree with the definition?
Mark
------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by peter borger, posted 02-17-2003 8:24 PM peter borger has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by mark24, posted 02-26-2003 5:48 PM mark24 has not replied
 Message 182 by peter borger, posted 02-26-2003 8:38 PM mark24 has replied

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 181 of 199 (33300)
02-26-2003 5:48 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by mark24
02-18-2003 9:00 AM


Welcome back.....
Well?
------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by mark24, posted 02-18-2003 9:00 AM mark24 has not replied

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 183 of 199 (33309)
02-26-2003 8:45 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by peter borger
02-26-2003 8:38 PM


Peter B,
If we agree that the prediction of the ToE is that transitional forms exist according to the following definition:
quote:
"A transitional is a form that possesses character states that are part way between two separate taxa, &/or a mix of discrete characters between two taxa."
Then I'd like to forward Archaeopteryx as a candidate. The two taxa being reptiles & birds.
Mark
------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by peter borger, posted 02-26-2003 8:38 PM peter borger has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by peter borger, posted 02-27-2003 12:18 AM mark24 has replied

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 186 of 199 (33345)
02-27-2003 4:50 AM
Reply to: Message 184 by peter borger
02-27-2003 12:18 AM


What of the furcula?
Peter,
quote:
I thought everybody agreed ages ago that Archie is a bird? What about the furcula?
What of it? The definition allows for discrete characters that are unique to one taxa or another, so a "fully developed" furcula found in birds, & a fully developed pubic peduncle found in dinosaurs makes the archaeopteryx a transitional form by the definition you agreed to.
What taxa it was subsequently shoehorned into is irrelevant.
Mark
------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.
[This message has been edited by mark24, 02-27-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by peter borger, posted 02-27-2003 12:18 AM peter borger has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by mark24, posted 03-03-2003 8:01 PM mark24 has replied

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 187 of 199 (33579)
03-03-2003 8:01 PM
Reply to: Message 186 by mark24
02-27-2003 4:50 AM


Where areeeee - yoouuuu?
Peter?
------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by mark24, posted 02-27-2003 4:50 AM mark24 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by mark24, posted 03-04-2003 8:24 PM mark24 has not replied

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 188 of 199 (33656)
03-04-2003 8:24 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by mark24
03-03-2003 8:01 PM


Re: Where areeeee - yoouuuu?
Hel-oooo-ooo
------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by mark24, posted 03-03-2003 8:01 PM mark24 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by peter borger, posted 03-04-2003 8:35 PM mark24 has replied

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 190 of 199 (33661)
03-04-2003 8:39 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by peter borger
03-04-2003 8:35 PM


Well no, Peter, I opened it, so you can't "request" it be closed like the others.
But I await your comments.
Mark
------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by peter borger, posted 03-04-2003 8:35 PM peter borger has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by peter borger, posted 03-04-2003 8:43 PM mark24 has replied

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 192 of 199 (33663)
03-04-2003 8:45 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by peter borger
03-04-2003 8:43 PM


LOL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by peter borger, posted 03-04-2003 8:43 PM peter borger has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by peter borger, posted 03-04-2003 8:48 PM mark24 has not replied

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 197 of 199 (34254)
03-13-2003 4:24 AM
Reply to: Message 191 by peter borger
03-04-2003 8:43 PM


Peter,
quote:
I only close topics that I have won.
Do you think you have won here as well? You are conspicuous in your absence.
Mark
------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by peter borger, posted 03-04-2003 8:43 PM peter borger has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 198 by peter borger, posted 04-02-2003 9:34 PM mark24 has replied

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 199 of 199 (36161)
04-03-2003 3:28 AM
Reply to: Message 198 by peter borger
04-02-2003 9:34 PM


Re: a dino is nor rhino
Peter,
That's very nice, but your are ignoring the logical inference from the rest of the discussion. We have agreed that a hypothesis/theory is tested by it's predictions, we have also agreed that a prediction of the ToE is that, "a transitional is a form that possesses character states that are part way between two separate taxa, &/or a mix of discrete characters between two taxa." Archaeopteryx meets this definition. It contains well developed traits possessed by only birds & dinosaurs, "a mix of discrete characters between two taxa". The furcula, feathers, pubic peduncle, abdominal ribs, pygostyle etc. among other dinosaurian characters falls nicely into this definition.
Or are you trying to renegotiate the premises we agreed?
Your cites problem is that he can't see a furcula form gradually from the fossil evidence. This lack of observation is a lack of evidence, an argument from ignorance. Please address Archaeopteryx with reference to the agreed premises.
Mark
------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by peter borger, posted 04-02-2003 9:34 PM peter borger has not replied

  
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