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Author Topic:   Belief Statement - jar
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 16 of 300 (323374)
06-19-2006 4:21 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by GDR
06-19-2006 2:28 PM


Re: Reading from the BCP
I agree but as to where most Christians wind up I'm not prepared to say, but of course that brings up the unanswerable argument of who is a real Christian.
I don't believe so. I would say that anyone who professes to be a Christian is a Christian. I never doubt that anyone who says they are a Christian is one.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by GDR, posted 06-19-2006 2:28 PM GDR has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Phat, posted 06-19-2006 7:30 PM jar has not replied
 Message 18 by sidelined, posted 06-20-2006 1:46 AM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 17 of 300 (323513)
06-19-2006 7:30 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by jar
06-19-2006 4:21 PM


When is a Goat a Goat and thus cast out of the family?
Jar, that was a beautiful profession, and I like the way that you tell it by weaving real life things in it like Orange Soda!
I was always taught that not everyone is saved, but that once saved, nobody can lose their salvation. I always break it down into three levels.
1) Knowing about God. (everyone is at this level)
2) Meeting God. (that is the first day of awareness that God is real and not just a charicter or myth.)
3) Day to day relationship with God. (Doing our best to live as we should and trusting His Spirit to convict, correct, and guide us)
One question for your belief paradigm: The bit about losing ones salvation.
If a King should save all of the people, should he then behead the ones who do not do their best?
If a Father had five kids and three went on to school and volunteers in the community and loved the least of the neighbors, while one of them sat around the house eating chips and watching Jerry Springer while the other one went and joined the Most High Church of the Uppity Noses and lived off of other peoples generousity, would not the Father, dissappointed though he was, still call all five his children?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by jar, posted 06-19-2006 4:21 PM jar has not replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5907 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 18 of 300 (323696)
06-20-2006 1:46 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by jar
06-19-2006 4:21 PM


Re: Reading from the BCP
jar
OK so we need to tell the real Christians from the others eh? Right then! Release the lions. Now who cares to stick about?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by jar, posted 06-19-2006 4:21 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by jar, posted 06-20-2006 9:19 AM sidelined has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 19 of 300 (323704)
06-20-2006 2:12 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by jar
06-18-2006 2:46 PM


Re: Jars essay on enlightenment
GOD, like the rest of my family was simply always there.
What age were you when mum and dad told you that Santa wasn't real, or that the tooth fairy didn't exist?
Is there the possiblity that you had been conditioned into believing in God?
Saying that God was always there, like a part of the family, could mean you were (accidently) subjected to a kind of 'brain washing'. Is this a possibility, and if not why not?
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by jar, posted 06-18-2006 2:46 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by jar, posted 06-20-2006 9:16 AM Brian has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 20 of 300 (323804)
06-20-2006 9:16 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Brian
06-20-2006 2:12 AM


Re: Jars essay on enlightenment
Saying that God was always there, like a part of the family, could mean you were (accidently) subjected to a kind of 'brain washing'. Is this a possibility, and if not why not?
Certainly that is a possibility.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Brian, posted 06-20-2006 2:12 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Brian, posted 06-20-2006 10:06 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 21 of 300 (323805)
06-20-2006 9:19 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by sidelined
06-20-2006 1:46 AM


Aren't they all Christians?
OK so we need to tell the real Christians from the others eh? Right then! Release the lions. Now who cares to stick about?
Why do we need to tell the real Christians from the others? Aren't they all real Christians?
Edited by jar, : fix subtitle

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by sidelined, posted 06-20-2006 1:46 AM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by iano, posted 06-20-2006 9:32 AM jar has not replied
 Message 35 by sidelined, posted 06-20-2006 1:20 PM jar has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 22 of 300 (323808)
06-20-2006 9:32 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by jar
06-20-2006 9:19 AM


Re: Aren't they all Christians?
According to you perhaps. According to me, no.
Go figure!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by jar, posted 06-20-2006 9:19 AM jar has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 23 of 300 (323815)
06-20-2006 10:06 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by jar
06-20-2006 9:16 AM


Agnostic Xian?
Certainly that is a possibility.
So, in reality, you are an agnostic Xian?
Brian.
PS, You did know there's no Santa or tooth fairy didn't you, I'd hate for you to have found out this way.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by jar, posted 06-20-2006 9:16 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by jar, posted 06-20-2006 10:19 AM Brian has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 24 of 300 (323817)
06-20-2006 10:19 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Brian
06-20-2006 10:06 AM


Re: Agnostic Xian?
I freely admit that my religion is a belief. I personally am sure of my belief, but honesty compels me to say I know I could be wrong.
PS, You did know there's no Santa or tooth fairy didn't you, I'd hate for you to have found out this way.
Well, I know about the Tooth Fairy but Santa is, for me, very real. Santa lives inside each of us that carries on his work, that sacrifice hours and knuckles and moments when we could be doing more enjoyable things than trying to follow instructions written in English that was translated from Cantonese by a Pakistani.
Yes, Santa is very real, and can be seen in the sparkle in the eyes of the six year old who gets the Big Boy Bike he wanted "All his life". He can be seen in the eyes of the child whos little hand clasps her fathers tightly one a dark night as they look for the source of the loud, scary quacking sound and the amazment in those same eyes when the source turns out to be a tiny green frog the size of a quarter.
Yes, Santa is very real.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Brian, posted 06-20-2006 10:06 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Brian, posted 06-20-2006 10:26 AM jar has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 25 of 300 (323819)
06-20-2006 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by jar
06-20-2006 10:19 AM


Re: Agnostic Xian?
But that isn't Santa, that is 'Santa'.
Anyway, back on topic.
As an agnostic Xian, why do you feel that the God of the OT is the one true God when you openly admit that the OT is essentially a book of propaganda, 'fairy tales', legends, and scientific and historical impossibilities.
Wouldn't the logical approach be that since the OT is basically a collection of unreliable texts, then why should the Israelites be any more accurate about their God than they are about their history?
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by jar, posted 06-20-2006 10:19 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by jar, posted 06-20-2006 10:38 AM Brian has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 26 of 300 (323820)
06-20-2006 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Brian
06-20-2006 10:26 AM


Re: Agnostic Xian?
As an agnostic Xian, why do you feel that the God of the OT is the one true God when you openly admit that the OT is essentially a book of propaganda, 'fairy tales', legends, and scientific and historical impossibilities.
What makes you think that is what I believve?
I believe that there is GOD. One true GOD. Religion, whether Christianity or Islam or Buddhism or Taoism or Wicca or Satanism or Hinduism or any other form is but a human centric search for that GOD.
Religion is but a Map, not the Territory. It is a human construct and subject to all the limitations, the lack of knowledge, the misconceptions, the contemporary points of view as any other human construct. Christianity is no more GOD than Judaism is. They are but tools used by man to try to understand something that is beyond human comprehension.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Brian, posted 06-20-2006 10:26 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Brian, posted 06-20-2006 10:55 AM jar has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 27 of 300 (323825)
06-20-2006 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by jar
06-20-2006 10:38 AM


Re: Agnostic Xian?
What makes you think that is what I believve?
Well the Bible part is at least true, you say it almost daily here.
I believe that there is GOD. One true GOD.
But this God is Jesus Christ though, therefore my assumption in the last post must be correct.
Religion, whether Christianity or Islam or Buddhism or Taoism or Wicca or Satanism or Hinduism or any other form is but a human centric search for that GOD.
Why does Buddhism teach that there isn't a God then? Seems a strange way to make yourself noticed. Same with Taoism, there is no God there either.
But, this is smoke and mirrors, you specifically state that you are a Xian, which teaches that Jesus Christ is God incarnate, this is incompatible with the teachings of Islam, are you sure that it is accurate to describe yourself as a Xian?
Why not identify yourself as a Buddhist (ignoring the teaching about an eternal being of course) or a Muslim?
Christianity is no more GOD
But, Christianity is based on a relationship with a personal God, a God that you believe in your heart conquered death so that you can have eternal life. It is based on a God of revelation.
They are but tools used by man to try to understand something that is beyond human comprehension.
But, you are basing your beliefs exclusively on these 'maps', since you havent had a personal experience of God.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by jar, posted 06-20-2006 10:38 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by jar, posted 06-20-2006 11:11 AM Brian has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 28 of 300 (323826)
06-20-2006 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Brian
06-20-2006 10:55 AM


Re: Agnostic Xian?
I'm not sure that this will answer your questions, or that I can answer them to your satisfaction but I will try.
My beliefs really are just My Beliefs. They are personal, individual and intimate. Yes, I believe that Jesus Christ is GOD and that He came down as a human, a man, to be a teacher. But that does not make other religions wrong.
I try not to limit GOD. I see no reason to limit either how GOD can reach out to people or how people can reach out to GOD. You specifically mention Islam and the fact that they do not recognize Jesus as being GOD as though that were some great point. Frankly, I don't see the import. I disagree with them, but that does not make me right or them wrong. Neither of us knows, both of us believe.
But, this is smoke and mirrors, you specifically state that you are a Xian, which teaches that Jesus Christ is God incarnate, this is incompatible with the teachings of Islam, are you sure that it is accurate to describe yourself as a Xian?
Why not identify yourself as a Buddhist (ignoring the teaching about an eternal being of course) or a Muslim?
Certainly it is accurate to describe myself as a Christian. I believe that Jesus Christ is GOD incarnate. What is your point?
Does that mean I am right and they are wrong? I don't think so. If I was a Buddhist I would be expressing the tenets of the Buddhists.
But, you are basing your beliefs exclusively on these 'maps', since you havent had a personal experience of God.
And what makes you think I have not?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Brian, posted 06-20-2006 10:55 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Brian, posted 06-20-2006 12:23 PM jar has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 29 of 300 (323850)
06-20-2006 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by jar
06-20-2006 11:11 AM


Re: Agnostic Xian?
I'm not sure that this will answer your questions, or that I can answer them to your satisfaction but I will try.
I’m more confused.
My beliefs really are just My Beliefs. They are personal, individual and intimate.
The problem is, you are applying an already defined faith to your personal faith that does not resemble the description of that faith.
Yes, I believe that Jesus Christ is GOD and that He came down as a human, a man, to be a teacher. But that does not make other religions wrong.
Yes it does.
Islam rejects Jesus, although He is accepted as a very important prophet, it is absurd to a Muslim to say that God had a son.
It also means that Buddhism is wrong, a faith that teaches that nothing is eternal, that everything is in a state of constant flux, that there is no such thing as a ”soul’ is incompatible with Christianity.
I try not to limit GOD.
But, when you describe yourself as a Christian you limit YOUR beliefs.
I see no reason to limit either how GOD can reach out to people or how people can reach out to GOD.
So, 2500 years of Buddhist teaching is basically a sham? Why would the major Buddhist teachers, who, under their law of karma, would keep themselves within samsara by deliberately mislead their followers?
Why would Siddartha Gautama, who was brought up believing in the God of Hinduism, reject that God and preach that there are no eternal beings, if he was already following the truth?
You specifically mention Islam and the fact that they do not recognize Jesus as being GOD as though that were some great point.
Well, I would reckon that you say Jesus is God incarnate, they say Jesus is not God incarnate is quite an obstacle to overcome in the harmony stakes.
Frankly, I don't see the import.
I’m sure a Muslim or Christian would see the import though.
I disagree with them, but that does not make me right or them wrong.
It makes you unconvinced about Christianity though, it means you aren’t sure if Jesus is God at all, and thus it makes the term ”Christian’ difficult to apply to you, IMO.
Neither of us knows, both of us believe.
I have yet to meet a Muslim, and I have met a great many, who would agree with you. EVERY Muslim I have met is convinced beyond all doubt that their faith is true, and wouldn’t even entertain the possibility that there is no Allah, and that the Qur’an is mistaken on so many points.
Maybe I have just met different Muslims from you.
Certainly it is accurate to describe myself as a Christian. I believe that Jesus Christ is GOD incarnate. What is your point?
The point is you are essentially saying that Jesus is misleading a great many people. You imply that not everything Jesus said was true. For example, when Jesus said: ”no one comes to the Father, except through me” he essentially lied, because if your particular flavour of Xianity is true, there’s more than one way to the Father, so Jesus lied. And this isn’t just on this occasion; it means there are many other occasions where Jesus lied, or deliberately mislead people.
Does that mean I am right and they are wrong? I don't think so. If I was a Buddhist I would be expressing the tenets of the Buddhists.
If you were a Christian, you’d be expressing the tenets of Christianity, but what you are expressing in no way resembles any extant denomination of Christianity.
Brian writes:
But, you are basing your beliefs exclusively on these 'maps', since you havent had a personal experience of God.
JAR = And what makes you think I have not?
Well, what would arguably be the most important event in a Christian’s life would, IMO, at least be included in that Christian’s statement of belief, perhaps I missed it in your essay but I don’t see any personal experience of God in it.
What else convinces me you haven't met God is that you are not convinced that Jesus is God.
People who have went through a personal religious experience, and again I have met many, do not have your doubts.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by jar, posted 06-20-2006 11:11 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Jazzns, posted 06-20-2006 12:35 PM Brian has replied
 Message 31 by jar, posted 06-20-2006 12:38 PM Brian has replied
 Message 110 by berberry, posted 06-25-2006 2:54 PM Brian has not replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 30 of 300 (323858)
06-20-2006 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Brian
06-20-2006 12:23 PM


Re: Agnostic Xian?
People who have went through a personal religious experience, and
again I have met many, do not have your doubts.
Where did Jar express doubt about God? You seem to just be picking a fight for no reason here.
I happen to agree with a lot of Jar's philosophy and there may be even others on this forum such as Arach that do too. Just because we don't have a "Church of the Something" where there is some kind of formal doctrine that we adhere to does not mean that our subjective interpretation of Christianity is any more valid than the Baptists, Methodists, Penecostals, etc.
Are you the arbitar of what can be considered a valid belief system?

Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Brian, posted 06-20-2006 12:23 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Brian, posted 06-20-2006 1:01 PM Jazzns has replied

  
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