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Author Topic:   Free will: an illusion
Heathen
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 204 of 309 (323405)
06-19-2006 5:00 PM
Reply to: Message 203 by iano
06-19-2006 4:49 PM


Re: Suspending Disbelief
iano writes:
If you accept the premise that Crevo put up then you do not think
you are misprepresenting me here... I gave TWO possible alternatives.
either we have no free will
or god is not all knowing.
iano writes:
Regarding the question: assuming an all knowing God and the fact that you think means that an all knowing God does NOT render free will illusionary
Now.. assume a God who is NOT all knowing.... your free will can survive intact.
Creavolution in the OP writes:
- It is my belief that if the Xian doctrine is to be believed, God is all knowing, and outside of time. He knows what will happen, what has happened, and what is happening. Therefore any notion of free will is a myth. We are merely playing out what is inevitable. Given this Predestination, I have the illusion of choice, but in truth there is only one path which can be followed, the one which Your God can see and knows to be true.
My bold... so I started saying IF god is all knowing, then we cannot have true free will.
If however God is NOT all knowing....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by iano, posted 06-19-2006 4:49 PM iano has not replied

Heathen
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 207 of 309 (323409)
06-19-2006 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 205 by iano
06-19-2006 5:00 PM


Re: Suspending Disbelief
iano writes:
This is not the issue we are dealing with in Q1. We have assumed God all knowing and work to the conclusions that arise from that. No is the only answer to that I suggest.
Weak.. read the opening post.. or my previous post... I describe your position... show it to be illogical.. what are we to do?
re-examine the premise. Is God Really All Knowing? If we are to have free will.. the only answer is no.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by iano, posted 06-19-2006 5:00 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 210 by iano, posted 06-19-2006 5:15 PM Heathen has replied

Heathen
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 209 of 309 (323411)
06-19-2006 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 206 by ramoss
06-19-2006 5:04 PM


Re: Suspending Disbelief
ramoss writes:
we have no free will
or
God is not all knowing
In the dune books, the 'trap' of not knowing the future vs free will is "escaped" by 'not knowing the future too precisely'.
exactly, the only way out of this is for God not to be all knowing. otherwise our free will is an illusion.
God being all knowing does not mean we cannot be having this conversation.. it merely means that we cannot affect the outcome.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by ramoss, posted 06-19-2006 5:04 PM ramoss has not replied

Heathen
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 211 of 309 (323415)
06-19-2006 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 210 by iano
06-19-2006 5:15 PM


make a choice free will or All knowing God
creavolution writes:
It is my belief that if the Xian doctrine is to be believed
IF.... IF the Xian Doctrine is to be believed...
my summary stated that IF God is All knowing (as per the christian doctrine) then free will is an illusion... so what are we left with?
Either... free will is an illusion
or
god is not all knowing.
make your choice.
Edited by Creavolution, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by iano, posted 06-19-2006 5:15 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 214 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-19-2006 5:47 PM Heathen has replied
 Message 216 by iano, posted 06-19-2006 5:51 PM Heathen has replied

Heathen
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 215 of 309 (323427)
06-19-2006 5:50 PM
Reply to: Message 214 by New Cat's Eye
06-19-2006 5:47 PM


Re: make a choice free will or All knowing God
CS writes:
By another definition, God is all knowing and we have free will.
can you explain how you arrive at this definfition, and how the contradiction is overcome?
rather than just asserting it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-19-2006 5:47 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 227 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-20-2006 10:48 AM Heathen has replied

Heathen
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 217 of 309 (323431)
06-19-2006 5:56 PM
Reply to: Message 216 by iano
06-19-2006 5:51 PM


Re: make a choice free will or All knowing God
And I said 'IF' God is all knowing 'Therefore' free will is illusory.
the only alternative is:
God is not all knowing.
please respond.
Edited by Creavolution, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 216 by iano, posted 06-19-2006 5:51 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 218 by iano, posted 06-19-2006 6:01 PM Heathen has replied

Heathen
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 219 of 309 (323446)
06-19-2006 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 218 by iano
06-19-2006 6:01 PM


Re: make a choice free will or All knowing God
last time iano... last time...
be honest or move on to the other points
creavolution writes:
It is my belief that if the Xian doctrine is to be believed, God is all knowing, and outside of time. He knows what will happen, what has happened, and what is happening. Therefore any notion of free will is a myth. We are merely playing out what is inevitable. Given this Predestination, I have the illusion of choice, but in truth there is only one path which can be followed, the one which Your God can see and knows to be true.
creavolutio writes:
If (what i believe) your idea of god to be exists... then yes.. exactly. We are nothing more that programmed machines playing out what he knows will happen. He created us with fallen judgement. so even if our choices actually represent free will.. they are hopeless as we cannot judge whether or not we make the right decision.
creavolution writes:
In the absence of an all knowing-creator god however.. we do have true free will.
creavolution writes:
And your world(God)view suggests.. even requires that free will is an illusion. so either free will is an illusion or you world(God)view is incorrect.
I don't know how many times I have to say it for you to read it...
iano writes:
If there is no creator God then you are a biological machine and free will is an illusion
can you back this up? why does free will require a creator?
iano writes:
It is churning out notions it must churn out.
or it is reacting to stimuli and deciding, for itself, how to best respond. Free will.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by iano, posted 06-19-2006 6:01 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 221 by iano, posted 06-19-2006 6:24 PM Heathen has replied

Heathen
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 222 of 309 (323475)
06-19-2006 6:38 PM
Reply to: Message 221 by iano
06-19-2006 6:24 PM


Re: make a choice free will or All knowing God
I'm done with this point Iano.
You have contributed nothing to support your position as far as I can see...
if you'd like to consider the other points feel free

This message is a reply to:
 Message 221 by iano, posted 06-19-2006 6:24 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 223 by iano, posted 06-19-2006 6:52 PM Heathen has replied
 Message 232 by Codegate, posted 06-20-2006 12:08 PM Heathen has replied

Heathen
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 224 of 309 (323583)
06-19-2006 9:13 PM
Reply to: Message 223 by iano
06-19-2006 6:52 PM


Re: make a choice free will or All knowing God
wow.. even less impressive than 'goddidit'
kudos.

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 Message 223 by iano, posted 06-19-2006 6:52 PM iano has not replied

Heathen
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 228 of 309 (323828)
06-20-2006 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 227 by New Cat's Eye
06-20-2006 10:48 AM


Re: make a choice free will or All knowing God
I'm not sure I can subscribe to PY's and your re-definition of omnicience, describing an eternity constantly in flux.
To me this is simply not omniscience, if there is any uncertainty, or any point at which everything is not known or anything is unknown, then we do not have omniscience.
The particular model of eternity this thread was aimed at was ianos view of eternity as a book, where the omniscient god can flick the pages in any direction at any time and see what was, what is and what will be.
But omniscience based upon extrapolation from what is known, to a 'possible' outcome does not equate to true omniscience to me. and It is not the definition of omniscience I am argueing against in this thread.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-20-2006 10:48 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 229 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-20-2006 11:49 AM Heathen has replied
 Message 270 by PurpleYouko, posted 06-21-2006 9:35 AM Heathen has not replied

Heathen
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 231 of 309 (323843)
06-20-2006 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 229 by New Cat's Eye
06-20-2006 11:49 AM


Re: make a choice free will or All knowing God
catholic scientist writes:
In knowing everything, can you know the unknowable?
If you know everything then nothing is unknowable.
catholic scientist writes:
But, if god is omnipotent, then they must have the ability to know the future in the sense described above.
I think I see what you're getting at, are you suggesting that God could choose not to know something? turn a blind eye so-to-speak?
is he then truely all-knowing? to me this is not omniscience.
If I tell you that I know what happens in a movie... when in fact I only have the ability to watch the movie but have not excercised that ability yet.. could you say that I know all about that movie?
catholic scientist writes:
With that model, we do not have free will.
hence this thread.
catholic scientist writes:
If I had to pick one or the other then I'd say that I have free will and god is not all-knowing. But I suscribe to a different definition of omniscience, and believe that god is all-knowing and I have free will.
well then it's not really omniscience then is it?
Omniscience means awareness of everything... Everything with no conditions placed upon it, no extrapolations from a known present to a possible future, no dependancies on a starting point. Just straight forward omniscience.. knowledge or awareness of everything, everywhere, at anytime.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-20-2006 11:49 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 235 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-20-2006 12:24 PM Heathen has replied

Heathen
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 234 of 309 (323849)
06-20-2006 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 232 by Codegate
06-20-2006 12:08 PM


Re: make a choice free will or All knowing God
codegate writes:
Is it not possible, since God is all knowing that he could see all possibilities the extend outward from the current timeline?
entirely possible.. however that is not the world(God)view I was argueing against in this thread.
THe View that Iano (correct me if I'm wrong Iano) holds is that God knows what choices we will make (As he did with A&E in eden), he knows what the outcome will be. the existance of alternate possible timelines is irrelevant, as God knows which one we will follow.

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 Message 232 by Codegate, posted 06-20-2006 12:08 PM Codegate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 236 by Codegate, posted 06-20-2006 12:24 PM Heathen has not replied
 Message 242 by iano, posted 06-20-2006 12:42 PM Heathen has replied

Heathen
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 239 of 309 (323857)
06-20-2006 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 235 by New Cat's Eye
06-20-2006 12:24 PM


Re: make a choice free will or All knowing God
catholic scientist writes:
God doesn't know the future because it is unknwable, but, being all-powerful, God could choose to know the future if he disired
But.. if God can know it... it's not "unknowable" is it?
catholic scientist writes:
I would say that it is truely all-knowing because I don't think knowing everything includes knowing the future.
to me 'everything' includes the future. so knowing everything must include knowing the future.
catholic scientist writes:
A movie is a bad analogy becuase its outcome is predetermined. The characters in the story do not have free will.
much like our existance... IF God knows 'everything' (including the future)
catholic scientist writes:
But yeah, if it is all predetermined then we don't have free will. What's so hard about that?
ask iano...
catholic scientist writes:
I leave the 'anytime' condition out of it and consider the future unknowable. I have no conflict with omniscience and free will.
is the future not part of 'everything'? is the past?
Edited by Creavolution, : tidied up quote

This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-20-2006 12:24 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 244 by NosyNed, posted 06-20-2006 12:45 PM Heathen has not replied
 Message 249 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-20-2006 1:50 PM Heathen has replied

Heathen
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 240 of 309 (323861)
06-20-2006 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 237 by cavediver
06-20-2006 12:26 PM


Re: Is knowing the future enough to destroy free-will?
cavediver writes:
In any of these scenarios, have I removed your free-will? (assuming it was there to begin with) Can God's "knowing" have such a damning effect on our free-will, even if he doesn't tell us what we are going to do? Note, I am only interested in God's knowing at this point. Imagine God isn't the creator, but just has omniscience...
If God knows what will happen.. then there is nothing else that can happen. God knows that I will jump in a lake tomorrow.. that is what will happen. Regardless of my 'free will'. God can see. it is a given, it is the only outcome God knows that. (even if I don't)
I cannot affect the outcome, because according to the worldview in discussion here, the outcome is known. in the same way that I can flip to the end of a book and see 'whodidit'
this is the view I am trying to show is illogical.
If god know what will happen, everything that will happen.. then I can't see how we can really affect what will happen. I can't see how we have free will.
If god is not omniscient however.. we can have free will.. the future is unwritten, no one knows what will happen.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by cavediver, posted 06-20-2006 12:26 PM cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 243 by cavediver, posted 06-20-2006 12:44 PM Heathen has replied

Heathen
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 245 of 309 (323868)
06-20-2006 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 242 by iano
06-20-2006 12:42 PM


Re: make a choice free will or All knowing God
so God set in motion the mechanisms of the universe, our existance, knowing from the start what every outcome of every decision, every interaction would be.
At the dawn of time itself, God knew that I would be sitting here, having this discussion.
where is my free will? where is my ability to affect the outcome if it is already known? If I make a decision or take an action that results in a certain path being followed, it was already known that I would make that decision or take that path.
Free will is something only I percieve... God knows that I am playing out the scenario to its eventual unavoidable, foreknown conclusion.
iano writes:
(free will within boundaries as I was saying before)
THe boundary being that we will end up at the foreknown scenario. no alternatives, no options. what will be will be.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by iano, posted 06-20-2006 12:42 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 248 by iano, posted 06-20-2006 1:47 PM Heathen has replied

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