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Author Topic:   Free will: an illusion
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 241 of 309 (323862)
06-20-2006 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 238 by New Cat's Eye
06-20-2006 12:27 PM


Re: God's capriciousness
So it doesn't really make god capricious, it just makes god capricious from the human perspective. Of course you couldn't tell if it was random or not, but not knowing doesn't mean you should assume its random.
What else could I assume based on the evidence available?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-20-2006 12:27 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
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iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 242 of 309 (323863)
06-20-2006 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 234 by Heathen
06-20-2006 12:19 PM


Re: make a choice free will or All knowing God
The view that Iano (correct me if I'm wrong Iano) holds is that God knows what choices we will make (As he did with A&E in eden), he knows what the outcome will be. the existance of alternate possible timelines is irrelevant, as God knows which one we will follow.
This is my position although I wouldn't so quickly reject Codegates reference to 'multiple timelines'. Following that line might reveal something of the mechanism whereby "God is all knowing yet we have choice". If there was x amount of options truly open to us (in other words, the totality of the result of human activity and interaction could have followed any number of quite different possibilities) then our choice determined that it would be the way it is. He knew everyway it could be (free will within boundaries as I was saying before) - and he knew which of those it would be.
His knowing which path it would be doesn't affect the fact that our choices led us down one of the many, many possible paths we could have taken.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 234 by Heathen, posted 06-20-2006 12:19 PM Heathen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by Heathen, posted 06-20-2006 12:52 PM iano has replied

cavediver
Member (Idle past 3644 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 243 of 309 (323864)
06-20-2006 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 240 by Heathen
06-20-2006 12:39 PM


Re: Is knowing the future enough to destroy free-will?
If God knows what will happen..
But my point is, can I take away your free-will simply by knowing what is going to happen? Either by time-travel, or prescience, or whetever. Time-travel at least is a theoretical possibility (although probably a practical impossibility).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by Heathen, posted 06-20-2006 12:39 PM Heathen has replied

Replies to this message:
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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 244 of 309 (323865)
06-20-2006 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 239 by Heathen
06-20-2006 12:33 PM


Not pre-determined just determined
much like our existance... IF God knows 'everything' (including the future)
Read Brian Green's "The Fabric of the Cosmos". It spends a chapter pointing out that relativity shows that our perception of time flowing is yet another area where our perception is not what the universe is like.
(time for cavediver to check up on my reading here)
He shows why the time dimension is just as "there" in its full extent as the 3 space dimensions. The past and the future are all "there" all the "time". There is no "flow of time". There is a fixed past, a fixed now and a fixed future. This seems to remove "free will" as we commonly understand it.

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Heathen
Member (Idle past 1284 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 245 of 309 (323868)
06-20-2006 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 242 by iano
06-20-2006 12:42 PM


Re: make a choice free will or All knowing God
so God set in motion the mechanisms of the universe, our existance, knowing from the start what every outcome of every decision, every interaction would be.
At the dawn of time itself, God knew that I would be sitting here, having this discussion.
where is my free will? where is my ability to affect the outcome if it is already known? If I make a decision or take an action that results in a certain path being followed, it was already known that I would make that decision or take that path.
Free will is something only I percieve... God knows that I am playing out the scenario to its eventual unavoidable, foreknown conclusion.
iano writes:
(free will within boundaries as I was saying before)
THe boundary being that we will end up at the foreknown scenario. no alternatives, no options. what will be will be.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by iano, posted 06-20-2006 12:42 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 248 by iano, posted 06-20-2006 1:47 PM Heathen has replied

Heathen
Member (Idle past 1284 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 246 of 309 (323871)
06-20-2006 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 243 by cavediver
06-20-2006 12:44 PM


Re: Is knowing the future enough to destroy free-will?
By knowing what will happen. He knows before the moment what our decisions will be. in our little bubble we have the perception of choices and of free will.
But nothing we do will change what God knows and has always known will be.
Abe:
cavediver writes:
take away your free-will
not so much take away... it was never there in the firstplace
Edited by Creavolution, : additional point

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 Message 243 by cavediver, posted 06-20-2006 12:44 PM cavediver has not replied

sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 247 of 309 (323896)
06-20-2006 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 237 by cavediver
06-20-2006 12:26 PM


Re: Is knowing the future enough to destroy free-will?
cavediver
Can God's "knowing" have such a damning effect on our free-will, even if he doesn't tell us what we are going to do? Note, I am only interested in God's knowing at this point. Imagine God isn't the creator, but just has omniscience..
Does God knowing the outcome not imply that the outcome is already determined? If not, how then could God see a future that is undetermined, since ,by definition, even he could not have knowledge of it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by cavediver, posted 06-20-2006 12:26 PM cavediver has not replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 248 of 309 (323908)
06-20-2006 1:47 PM
Reply to: Message 245 by Heathen
06-20-2006 12:52 PM


Re: make a choice free will or All knowing God
It just struck me. It seems to me that "if what will be will be" is true then what will be will be and no one should concern themselves too much about it. If I (for example) end up in heaven and you (for example) end up in hell because we were destined to end up there (without our having a part in proceedings) then that is just the way it is.
God would have exercised his sovereign choice, destined this one and that for whatever reason he had in mind. There would be of course no injustice in him picking as he likes. We are simply items of his manufacture, made for whatever reason and his to do with as he pleases.
Whats the big deal if we do not, in fact, have free will?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by Heathen, posted 06-20-2006 12:52 PM Heathen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 251 by Heathen, posted 06-20-2006 2:01 PM iano has replied
 Message 254 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-20-2006 2:15 PM iano has not replied
 Message 277 by PurpleYouko, posted 06-21-2006 10:08 AM iano has replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 249 of 309 (323910)
06-20-2006 1:50 PM
Reply to: Message 239 by Heathen
06-20-2006 12:33 PM


Re: make a choice free will or All knowing God
But.. if God can know it... it's not "unknowable" is it?
Unknowable to omniscience but knowable to omnipotence (becuase omnipotence has the power to control the future and make it knowable).
I guess you could to say it moves the goalposts but I don't think so.
to me 'everything' includes the future. so knowing everything must include knowing the future.
not to me. I don't think the future exists until it becomes the present and then it immediately becomes the past.
catholic scientist writes:
A movie is a bad analogy becuase its outcome is predetermined. The characters in the story do not have free will.
much like our existance... IF God knows 'everything' (including the future)
Right, but if I want to argue that free will does exist, I can't use a movie as an analogy.
is the future not part of 'everything'?
It is not, IMHO. I know there's the whole 4d universe with a fixed future theory, like Ned posted about, I just don't agree with it.
is the past?
Yeah, even I can know the past.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by Heathen, posted 06-20-2006 12:33 PM Heathen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 252 by Heathen, posted 06-20-2006 2:05 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 250 of 309 (323916)
06-20-2006 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 241 by jar
06-20-2006 12:40 PM


Re: God's capriciousness
So it doesn't really make god capricious, it just makes god capricious from the human perspective. Of course you couldn't tell if it was random or not, but not knowing doesn't mean you should assume its random.
What else could I assume based on the evidence available?
Evidence!? What are you talking about? There is no evidence in this discussion.
Anyways...
Let's say you don't know if the next decision you make is predetermined or freely willed becuase god could either know or not know the decision you're gonna make, so, you assume that god is randomly deciding to know or not? That doesn't make any sense.
Of course you cannot tell the difference, so if you want to pick one or the other, you could just pick randomly, but that doesn't mean god is picking randomly.
IMO, most of the decisions are based on free will and only a small fraction of them are pre-determined by god. So, if I had to pick I would say that it is probably a decision by free will.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by jar, posted 06-20-2006 12:40 PM jar has not replied

Heathen
Member (Idle past 1284 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 251 of 309 (323917)
06-20-2006 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 248 by iano
06-20-2006 1:47 PM


Re: make a choice free will or All knowing God
iano writes:
It just struck me. It seems to me that "if what will be will be" is true then what will be will be and no one should concern themselves too much about it. If I (for example) end up in heaven and you (for example) end up in hell because we were destined to end up there (without our having a part in proceedings) then that is just the way it is.
indeed That what your position seems to me to be. We do not choose god, he chooses us. You are destined for heaven I am destined for hell. God created me knowing I was destined for hell. what nice chap. tell me why I should worship such a being?
iano writes:
Whats the big deal if we do not, in fact, have free will?
The big deal for you would be that your God is cruel, spiteful creating us only so that we should suffer.
THe big deal for me is... well... nothing, as here I am... on my default path nothing will change where I am going.
thanks God!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by iano, posted 06-20-2006 1:47 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 255 by iano, posted 06-20-2006 2:25 PM Heathen has replied

Heathen
Member (Idle past 1284 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 252 of 309 (323921)
06-20-2006 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by New Cat's Eye
06-20-2006 1:50 PM


Re: make a choice free will or All knowing God
catholic scientist writes:
Unknowable to omniscience
contradiction in terms I think. that does not make any sense to me.
quote:
is the past?
Yeah, even I can know the past
So if you don't or can't know something it simply doesn't exist?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-20-2006 1:50 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 253 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-20-2006 2:11 PM Heathen has replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 253 of 309 (323925)
06-20-2006 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 252 by Heathen
06-20-2006 2:05 PM


Re: make a choice free will or All knowing God
catholic scientist writes:
Unknowable to omniscience
contradiction in terms I think. that does not make any sense to me.
Its not contradictory to me because I think omniscience is limited to that which is possible to know.
So if you don't or can't know something it simply doesn't exist?
Umm, no. You got it backwards. If something doesn't exists then it simply can't be known, in the context of omniscience and the future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by Heathen, posted 06-20-2006 2:05 PM Heathen has replied

Replies to this message:
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 254 of 309 (323928)
06-20-2006 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 248 by iano
06-20-2006 1:47 PM


Re: make a choice free will or All knowing God
Whats the big deal if we do not, in fact, have free will?
Because then god is an asshole.
He predetermined the life of a little jewish boy to be one of torture in a concentration camp and then damnation for all eternity. What an asshole!
ABE: I don't mean to imply that all jews are damned.
Edited by Catholic Scientist, : see ABE

This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by iano, posted 06-20-2006 1:47 PM iano has not replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 255 of 309 (323933)
06-20-2006 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 251 by Heathen
06-20-2006 2:01 PM


Que Sera, Sera
That what your position seems to me to be. We do not choose god, he chooses us.
For the record my position is that if saved God has chosen us and if damned we have rejected God. Free will allows this. In that case you are not obliged to enter hell. You choose to go there.
But if your position was correct:
God created me knowing I was destined for hell. what nice chap. tell me why I should worship such a being?
Then there is no reason why you should worship him - you have no free choice to worship him. You are destined not to worship him (not that pre-destined worship makes any sense: I can programme my computer to say "Iano you are the best, Iano you are the greatest" but it's not really the computer worshipping me - its me worshipping me. And as the old proverb goes "self praise is no praise at all"
The big deal for you would be that your God is cruel, spiteful creating us only so that we should suffer. The big deal for me is... well... nothing, as here I am... on my default path nothing will change where I am going.
Why so mournful? You seem to express a want, a desire, a will. But at the same time you know you haven't got wants, desires and a will - these thoughts are only determined by God. He has his reasons for it being so and if its good enough for him then what will be will be. Even your pre-determined thinking of him as cruel is simply (according to you) him making you think that way. You are not making a free choice. You certainly have no reason to suppose he is being cruel
You could chose to look on the bright side however. You could chose to dump this notion that you have no free will. As soon as you do so bright skys open up ahead. There IS light at the end of the tunnel. You are currently on a path to destruction - okay, that is the way it is. But it doesn't have to be so. You too can be saved.
That's why the Gospel is called Good News!
Edited by iano, : No reason given.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by Heathen, posted 06-20-2006 2:01 PM Heathen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 256 by Heathen, posted 06-20-2006 3:02 PM iano has replied

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